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Post by jeffolie on Jan 21, 2010 11:02:44 GMT -6
Please advise me.
I am now getting bids/proposals from solar system contractors for a 4.7 kw home system. I now have proposal/bids for $25,000
What should I insist be in the contract?
I live in Long Beach, CA near Los Angeles. Please recommend low priced contractors.
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Post by agito on Jan 21, 2010 15:03:07 GMT -6
man- wish i could help you- i jsut don't know. sounds exciting and fun though.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 21, 2010 16:53:45 GMT -6
If these are solar panels, at least they won't gobble water like the solar generators in the high desert.
What's the payout time, 20 years? My younger son is an electrical contractor; maybe he should get into solar, and cut back on home theater.
GB
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 22, 2010 9:11:19 GMT -6
Locking in my electric bill for the next 25 years (likely the rest of my life) is an inflation strategy and a regulatory strategy.
What's the payout time, 20 years?
For me the payout time is 6.5 years.
The Return On Investment is above average if you can get a very good contract price along with substantial state rebates and tax credits. The variable is the state and local rebates while the Fed tax credit is the easy part of calculating the out of pocket costs. The best strategy is to generate enough electricity to eliminate the top 3 tiers (of 5 tiers) of your usage.
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 23, 2010 11:09:36 GMT -6
The competition for my solar electric home system is increasing as I reach out to more solar contractors.
The government money brings down the cost a lot. On this system the California rebate lowers the price from $25,000 to $18,300. The federal income tax credits reduces it to about $13,000.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 23, 2010 13:00:17 GMT -6
Good. Keep up the digging. Huntington has been handing out propaganda promoting solar. You might check the LongBeach city site for info.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Jan 23, 2010 14:04:41 GMT -6
The government money brings down the cost a lot. On this system the California rebate lowers the price from $25,000 to $18,300. The federal income tax credits reduces it to about $13,000. I don't own a home, so I'm not too knowledgeable here. But getting government rebates & tax credits to reduce the $25K cost down to $13K sounds pretty good. Do you suppose, however, that getting that much in rebates will raise prices charged by contractors—the same way easy money raised home prices, and the same way student loans raised college tuition prices?
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Post by agito on Jan 23, 2010 17:13:06 GMT -6
with %10+ unemployment in california (and a lot of it coming from home construction sector), no. Maybe later it will- but not right now.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 23, 2010 21:12:02 GMT -6
This could be a paying proposition, if inflation kicks in as expected. Electric rates can be expected to pretty well keep up with inflation, so reducing that expense will be good. If you can borrow at low fixed rate, you will come out ahead there, too. Can you get the tax rebates before inflation kicks in?
GB
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 24, 2010 16:34:33 GMT -6
Much risk exists in buying a home solar electric system. When the government rebates and tax credits decline or end, the residential solar industry may die resulting solar contractors and solar products manufacturers failing.
The labor warranty risk.
Contractor's 10 year labor warrantees will die with the end of the individual solar contractor's business. Contractors can easily start up a new business and abondon their labor warrantees.
Avoiding untested, new startup solar contractors can be done a little easier. The state of California's support of the solar industry includes it website that lists solar contractor and links to provide limited information on each solar contractor listed. It links the contractor to the California agency overseeing contractor licenses. This provides when the license was issue so as to know how long the solar contractor has been in the solar and other lines of licensed work.
I have reached out using emails and the solar contractors websites to a lot of solar contractors this weekend screening out the new solar contractors.
The products warranty risk.
California requires a 25 year solar panel/module warranty. The warranty becomes worthless if the manufacturer fails.
The solar electric system includes an expensive device that converts the DC electricity produced by the panels/modules. DC must be converted into AC current for the home usage by this "inverter". For my home system the inverter is about a $4000 item and has a 10 year warranty. I must plan on replacing this item 10 or so years out thus adding to the cost of the system, but 10 years from now the inverter may cost less (or more) plus the labor.
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 25, 2010 9:45:39 GMT -6
Over 80 solar contractors exist on the California Renewable Retailers & Installers database within 50 miles of my home. The competition to win my project goes on and on but I should be done having contractors make their first bids within 2 weeks.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 25, 2010 11:38:30 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something, that sounds awfully high for an inverter; about 10 times what I would expect.
Electronics is the only thing in life where you get more for your money every year.
GB
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Post by agito on Jan 25, 2010 14:35:10 GMT -6
you probably are graybeard- this link seemed to have some specifics on addons that are necessary: www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago89.html it looks like if you just search 1500w inverter you can find results for less than a thousand dollars, but judging by the recommendations on the list above, You aren't going to get away with spending less than $2000 for something that can handle the durability needs of a home electric system.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 25, 2010 22:36:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the link, Agito. Jeffolie, are you looking at a simple grid tie system, or the whole enchilada with batteries and a standby generator? Batteries are a lot of expense and maintenance, and will do you no good 99.9% of the time in Rong Beach. If you want backup power, a $500 gas powered generator will do. Please keep us in the loop on this, Jeffolie.
GB
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 26, 2010 12:05:01 GMT -6
Update:
I want a tie-in system, connected to the grid, not an off-grid system.
Of the 80 some solar electric contractors within 50 miles of my zip code the field has narrowed to about 3 although I will be having the last 7 solar contractors coming to my home in the next 48 hours.
The lowest bids among the contractors that I am willing to consider range between $21,992 upto $24,000 and differ in the manufacturers products that will be in the 4.7 DC kw system. I did not bother with any contractors that have less than 3 years of solar contracting or those that did not build many systems in the last year; thus, eliminating at least 50 of the 80 solar contractors in the state of California database within 50 miles of my home.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 28, 2010 21:28:36 GMT -6
You might look at the availability of solar modules and inverters on ebay. It gives you a wide variety to learn about. How will the contractor install the modules with earthquake protection? I've seen pix of the 1933 Long Beach quake, and it wasn't pretty. Here are a couple of books, which might somehow save you money, or at least make you a smarter consumer: www.thesolardesignbook.com/How many square feet of solar cells will your 4700W system have? Is that 4700W peak output? The only roof I have that faces south is flat, and only 24 feet long, so I doubt I could install that much power. GB
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Post by agito on Jan 28, 2010 23:49:50 GMT -6
I'm curious how the home insurance policy would treat the installation (and whether they have any suggestions)...
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 29, 2010 14:49:26 GMT -6
Yes there is enough room on the south facing half of my roof. I have had over 20 contractors come to the house and they all say that roof space is not a problem.
I visited with my insurance agent, I have Traveler's. The system will increase the value of my house by the purchase price for insurance purposes and raise my insurance premium by about $30 per year.
In case of an earthquake, I have a separate earthquake insurance policy. The deductable for all earthquake policy is very high in nominal dollars. The percentage deductible for earthquake policies are between 10-15% in California but that is applied against the entire policy; for example, a 15% deductable on $500, 000 is $75,000 which must be paid by the homeowner before the earthquake insurance pays out even $1.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 29, 2010 18:14:06 GMT -6
I have more concern about earthquake tolerance than earthquake insurance, which I don't carry. I would ask the contractor to specify how his mounting of the modules and inverter take earthquake into account. Rong Beach building code may be good enough, but I would ask. There's something like a 90% chance of a moderate quake here before those modules wear out.
GB
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Post by agito on Jan 29, 2010 19:20:16 GMT -6
I'd agree that the LA area is due for another 6.0 plus in the next 10 years... in fact- i should go add that to the predict the next 10 year thread.
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 30, 2010 12:39:54 GMT -6
I will be signing a contract Monday for a solar electric system.
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Post by graybeard on Jan 30, 2010 18:17:27 GMT -6
I found this today: sharpusa.cleanpowerestimator.com/default.aspxIt might be enlightening if you try different size systems to see where you get most bang for the buck. Sharp is less than two miles from my house, and I had no idea this was what they were doing.. I found a used 3KW system on Craiglist, and his price looks good, but is more than a new system would be, after rebates. I'm sure the second owner could not get any rebate. GB
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Post by jeffolie on Jan 31, 2010 13:27:13 GMT -6
One desparate solar contractor is sending his sales rep to my house today, Sunday.
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Post by agito on Jan 31, 2010 13:51:10 GMT -6
that's gotta be annoying
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Post by jeffolie on Feb 1, 2010 16:36:11 GMT -6
The signed contract ends up with a net of rebates and tax credits cost of just under $10,000. The electricity produced will lower my monthly bill on average about $140 or annually $1680.
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Post by agito on Feb 1, 2010 17:31:27 GMT -6
are you going to keep track of the bills to see how much it helps?
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Post by jeffolie on Feb 1, 2010 17:47:49 GMT -6
Yes, I will keep track. One way is that I will track how much energy I buy from my electric company, SCE. I have the uage per month for each month from SCE historical data. I will compare how much I am using against last years. Unfortunately, this type of comparison runs afoul of the changed situation in my home. I now have 3 adult kids living at home and have added a freezer in anticipation of higher food prices. So, my current month's usage is a better benchmark to measure the resulting decrease in my monthly bill. Another wrinkle is that here in the SCE service territory the billing is tiered just like in inverted triangle. The higher levels cost more per unit of electricity used than the lower levels, a lot more than the lower levels.. So eliminating the top tiers, levels reduces my electric bill a lot more than simply measuring the reduction in the electicity bought. My immediate goal is to eliminate the top 3 tiers of the 5 tiers at least since the bottom 2 tiers cost the least per unit of electricity that I buy from SCE.
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Post by graybeard on Feb 1, 2010 18:42:36 GMT -6
Did you end up with the 4.7KW system?
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Post by agito on Feb 1, 2010 18:48:38 GMT -6
SCE... Hey, remember back in 2000 when we all (SCE customers) had ridiculously low electricity rates, and then Enron made the rates shoot through the roof. I still don't know exactly what happened there, and I don't know if the rest of the country went through the same thing or not.
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Post by jeffolie on Feb 2, 2010 10:57:42 GMT -6
I selected a solar contractor that is likely to stay in business meaning he is getting enough work by doing a fair amount of jobs. I check his references, contractor's license, reseller's license, BBB. I did my due dilegence. He is not a newbie with just a couple years in solar contracting and is certified by a well established national organization.
One provision of the contract makes the contractor warranty parts and labor for 15 years. If the panel manufacturer goes out of business, the contractor must stand behind the panels. The state of California requires panel manufacturers to provide a 25 year warranty, but if the manufacturer fails which it might if it was sued to death over defective panels then the 25 year warranty would be useless. Also, one expensive item is the inverter that has merely a 10 year manufacturer's warranty. Now the contractor must replace it if it fails upto 15 years. The state agency overseeing the program said their were no problems with the manufacturer's panels reported so far. And the inverter is a well established product with a good reputation. So, the contractor has little risk in providing this 15 year warranty for parts and labor.
Another contract provision makes the contractor do whatever the City of Long Beach inspectors require at no additional cost to me. Some bidders told me that an upgrade to my circuit breaker box would be required while other contractors said no upgrade would be required. Upgrading the box is $1500 to $2500 depending on the contractor.
The solar contractor must eat the difference between the estimated State of California rebate and the real rebate. Although all the contractors said they almost never had a problem.
One provision requires the contractor to remove and then reinstall the system at no additional cost when and if a roofer is needed to work on the roof in the next 10 years. This is unlikely to happen because the roofing materials were warranteed for 40 years and the roof is 12 years old. Plus, the panels prolong the life of the roofing materials by shielding the roof from sun and rain.
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