|
Post by agito on Jan 8, 2011 13:26:09 GMT -6
its news today about gifford's death, and I hope the nation doesn't half-ass and overreact in the ensuing legislation.
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 14:05:12 GMT -6
Gunman in supermarket parking lot, hitts Giffords in head at close range, wounds up to 12 others
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 14:37:34 GMT -6
Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Dead After Being Shot Saturday, January 08, 2011 11:21:45 AM KFI Los Angeles ^ | 1/8/2011 | kfi am640 Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords had died from gunshot wounds after being shot in Tucson, Arizona. This is KFI Los Angeles radio breaking news so it's not on their website
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 16:46:44 GMT -6
Tucson - The surgeon who operated on Arizona Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords said he was "optimistic" she would recover from being shot in the head
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 8, 2011 16:49:06 GMT -6
A Federal Judge was also killed. About the killer: 22 year old Jared Laughner who was apparently a stone cold psychopath who labeled himself a "Conscience dreamer". His favorite books were the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. Evidently there are youtube videos of this miscreant out there as well. Here's one of his videos: www.youtube.com/user/StarhitshnazAnd yeah one Democratic scumbag politico before the bodies were even cold was indirectly blaming conservatives for this shooting because of the "words they are using". So expect the Demoncrats to start penning anti-hate speech legislation across the country.
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 16:51:31 GMT -6
The man who allegedly shot Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords has been identified as 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner, ABC News has learned. On a Myspace page apparently maintained by Loughner, he said goodbye to friends and said, "Please don't be mad at me... I cannot rest." Authorities said the shooter was in custody. Loughner reportedly made several YouTube videos with walls of text protesting the government and ranting against low literacy rates. "Hello, my name is Jared Lee Loughner. This video is my introduction to you!" the video, uploaded Dec. 15, says. "My favorite activity is conscience dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream -- sadly... My ambition -- is for informing literate dreamers about a new currency; in a few days, you know I'm conscience dreaming! Thank you!" Giffords, a Democrat who was just sworn in for her third term in Congress, survived the shooting and doctors said she's expected to recover. Five others, including Roll and a 9-year-old girl, died as a result of the shooting, President Obama said in an address today. abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee ... d=12572164
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 16:59:00 GMT -6
These lists below come from Mr. Loughner’s myspace site which has suddenly been shut down, and from his youtube channel which at the moment is still up and lists 4 films uploaded by Mr. Loughner. “Schools: I attended school: Thornydale elementary, Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College. Interests: My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college! Movies:(*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*) Music:Pass me the strings! Books: I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp, Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.” themoderatevoice.com/97464/bio-f ... -is-named/
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 17:03:03 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 17:16:28 GMT -6
[from www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/8/161324/9858 ] Previous run in(s) with the law: Loughner, born September 10, 1988, had a court case involving possession of drug paraphernalia in 2007. Case number was CR07-718864A. Case was dismissed after completion of a diversion program. ------------------------- www.huffingtonpost.com/... Link to a comment by classitup10, the same username he uses on YouTube, on a music lyrics website. Thanks to the person who sent this to me by email. I don't know if you want to be named. Jared Loughner was/is a left winger. Via Twitter: caitieparker This is a circus. Good Morning America just called me. 10 minutes ago caitieparker @antderosa it's loughner just checked my year book. 10 minutes ago in reply to antderosa caitieparker @lakarune I haven't seen him since '07. Then, he was left wing. 35 minutes ago in reply to lakarune caitieparker @noboa more left. I haven't seen him since '07 though. He became very reclusive. 37 minutes ago in reply to noboa caitieparker @antderosa he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in '06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical. 38 minutes ago in reply to antderosa caitieparker @antderosa As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy. 43 minutes ago in reply to antderosa caitieparker @antderosa he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven't seen him in person since '07 in a sign language class Thanks to jerseyjoew. ------------------------------------------------- Some transcript from his you tube (0+ / 0-) Terrorist If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon. I define terrorist This, a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism especially as a political weapon. If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem. You call me a terrorist. Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem. The majority of citizens in the United States of America have never reat the Unites States of America’s Constitution. You don’t have to accept the federalist laws. You’re literate, listener? If the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the recolutionary’s from the revolution are in control of the land and laws. Ther property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution. Thus, the revolutionary’s from the revolution are in control of the land and laws. In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I cant trust the current government is implying mmind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver! No I won’t trust in God! ------------------------------------------------------ www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/8/161324/9858
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 17:25:22 GMT -6
He listed both of these as among his favorite books: The Communist Manifesto, .... Mein Kampf,
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Jan 8, 2011 17:31:18 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 8, 2011 17:39:15 GMT -6
Well the beard of misunderstanding aka: Krugman is already blaming the GOP for creating a climate of hate.
Assholes like Kruggie don't even bother spending 5 minutes reading what this murderous lunatic was about.
Jared didn't listen to anyone except maybe the voices in his head and his writings show him to be a total nutjob.
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Jan 8, 2011 19:56:33 GMT -6
its news today about gifford's death, and I hope the nation doesn't half-ass and overreact in the ensuing legislation. And no sooner has this report come out, than the gun-control maniacs come out in force, as evidenced by Mayor Michael Bloomberg's anti-gun rant. Bloomberg is calling for more information sharing and more tracking of Americans' activity. Though in this instance this increased tracking and information is related only to guns, it's symbolic of all the trumped up excuses there are for surveiling and spying on Americans. www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/bloomberg-sends-stern-let_n_518551.html
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Jan 8, 2011 22:40:47 GMT -6
This is one more nail in democracy's coffin. Public servants, and CONgress especially, will be more isolated from the public, and even more at the beck and call of lobbyists.
Sister Sarah, with her map's gunsight on Giffords, is in deep shit.
Automatics, semi-automatics, and guns less than 3 feet long have little utility, except for killing people.
GB
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 9, 2011 0:24:07 GMT -6
GB Congress doesn't listen to us anymore and hasn't for a long time.
In terms of preaching violence and hate the Left is even worse than the GOP shills like Limbaugh, who merely mocks the Left and their so-called leaders. The sad fact is the Demoncrats can't produce shit in terms of hate preaching by the right.
Yeah blame the gun, never the killer or the police who ignored his previous death threats against people and allowed him to have a gun when he already had a criminal record.
And no shit sherlock, guns are meant for killing people. Whether it be a 1600's era blunderbuss or .22 cal derringer. Banning them won't change shit given the massive criminal gangs that run entire sections of our cities, they and anyone with the cash will always have them. Though I've always found it amusing that all liberal attempts at gun banning focused on law abiding citizens, never on criminals or the gangs. They always went silent on that.
Tells me a lot about them, and it's nothing good.
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Jan 9, 2011 7:47:35 GMT -6
Trying to save democracy by killing your fellow Americans, in or out of uniform, will end democracy.
Saving democracy today may well depend on the likes of Wikileaks and hackers.
GB
|
|
|
Post by fredorbob on Jan 9, 2011 7:54:52 GMT -6
His favorite books were the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. *scratches head* Oh look a touch of Ronulism too, "money not backed by gold OMG!" That's as funny as the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party www.nazi.org
|
|
|
Post by fredorbob on Jan 9, 2011 10:05:22 GMT -6
A talking head on TV says, "Arizona is the 'Mecca' of bigotry and intolerance."
It's a Mecca huh, you mean Arizona isn't the 'Vatican City' of bigotry and intolerance, its the 'Mecca' of bigotry and intolerance. hehe, ironic.
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Jan 9, 2011 11:13:03 GMT -6
Good one, Fredor.
The Vatican City of bigotry and intolerance may be near Anchorage.
GB
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 9, 2011 13:15:08 GMT -6
Trying to save democracy by killing your fellow Americans, in or out of uniform, will end democracy.
Given that most people killed in the U.S. by guns are done by inner city criminals(ethnic minorities against other ethnic minorities) it's something you can't do anything about. And most of it is drug related.
Basically drug use by middle and upper class whites fuels the killings. Get them to stop and most of the killings will stop.
But you won't see Jon Leibowitz(Stewart) talking about this. It would make his white upper class drug using friends look like shit heels.
Blaming guns is a cop out used by folks who can't face the truth.
Saving democracy today will depend on the likes of Wikileaks and hackers.
That's funny and rather sad. Most hackers are fucking criminals today who'd rip you off without a thought. The romantic view of them being some sort of noble person was a illusion created by Hollywood. The real versions are much different.
As for Assange, he is a self-promoting vulture who makes his fame and fortune off American soldiers who do all the dirty work for him.
And no one really cares about wikileaks, because what he exposed was already known by people who keep up with world events to begin with.
Heck most of his material is "well... duh", of course what the SD says to the public is different that what the SD does in private. Of course our embassies spy on people and foreign nationals do it to us. Yeah, every American embassy has a CIA operative and we do ask embassy personnel to gather intel. Yeah our troops hate working with Afghanis and don't trust the fuckers. And yeah we're sweating blood over the Pakistani nukes.
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 9, 2011 13:20:35 GMT -6
Oh what specifically makes the people of Alaska bigoted and intolerant besides being white and living in rural environment?
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Jan 10, 2011 9:48:00 GMT -6
Waltc: "Given that most people killed in the U.S. by guns are done by inner city criminals(ethnic minorities against other ethnic minorities) it's something you can't do anything about. And most of it is drug related."
I usually agree with your posts, Waltc, but where did you get such distorted info as this? The majority of gun deaths in the US are within families.
"Basically drug use by middle and upper class whites fuels the killings. Get them to stop and most of the killings will stop."
Legalize drugs and most crime will stop.
from a post on Huffpost: "Just out of curiosity, where were all the NRA heroes with their concealed handguns standing in the crowd just waiting to "take out" any evil doers that might appear?
I mean this *IS* the standard "rationale" for wide-spread concealed carry laws, isn't it? That if the teachers at Columbine, or the parishioners at George Tiller's church, or at any number of other gun-spree killings had been armed, the situation would have turned out completely differently. The killer or killers would have been "taken out" by the legally packing NRA true believers who would, inevitably, save the day for truth, justice and the American way.
Arizona is a gun wonderland, where every citizen has the legal right to carry any weapon they choose, anywhere. So where were the gun-totin', freedom-lovin' heroes in this incident? Why wasn't Loughner dealt with rapidly and heroically by such citizen militiamen with their legally carried firearms?
Perhaps it's because the NRA rhetoric is simply a lie? That it has been proven to be a puerile fantasy for the weak and feckless, time and again? That a gun isn't a magic wand that makes everything safe for puppies and angels? That guns simply do not make you a man? That this is just another example of why the NRA's rhetoric is self-serving balderdash employed for no better reason than to prop up the profitability of the arms merchants regardless of how many lives are lost in the process?"
GB
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Jan 10, 2011 12:46:35 GMT -6
from a post on Huffpost: "Just out of curiosity, where were all the NRA heroes with their concealed handguns standing in the crowd just waiting to "take out" any evil doers that might appear? I mean this *IS* the standard "rationale" for wide-spread concealed carry laws, isn't it? That if the teachers at Columbine, or the parishioners at George Tiller's church, or at any number of other gun-spree killings had been armed, the situation would have turned out completely differently. The killer or killers would have been "taken out" by the legally packing NRA true believers who would, inevitably, save the day for truth, justice and the American way. Arizona is a gun wonderland, where every citizen has the legal right to carry any weapon they choose, anywhere. So where were the gun-totin', freedom-lovin' heroes in this incident? Why wasn't Loughner dealt with rapidly and heroically by such citizen militiamen with their legally carried firearms? Perhaps it's because the NRA rhetoric is simply a lie? That it has been proven to be a puerile fantasy for the weak and feckless, time and again? That a gun isn't a magic wand that makes everything safe for puppies and angels? That guns simply do not make you a man? That this is just another example of why the NRA's rhetoric is self-serving balderdash employed for no better reason than to prop up the profitability of the arms merchants regardless of how many lives are lost in the process?" The poster's argument seems even more hollow than the NRA's. It's still illegal to shoot someone in public, even in Arizona--and even if you think they really, really deserve it. Furthermore, it's not justifiable to fire into a crowd trying to hit a single individual, which would have been the case here. The police aren't allowed to do it. Neither is a private individual who is legally carrying a gun. And it was probably not clear to everyone in the crowd who actually did the shooting. And here's another thought. Maybe no one else in the crowd was even carrying a gun. The right-to-bear-arms, and right to carry them, doesn't mandate that people carry them. Most people in Arizona probably don't carry a gun around with them, even if it is legal.
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Jan 10, 2011 14:03:38 GMT -6
The Huffpost missive against law abiding gun owners was just pathetic.
First off, the shooting happens within seconds, even the Secret Service can't do armed response in such circumstances.
Secondly, a armed response in crowded situation isn't feasible period. Your best bet is for several people to tackle the shooter as what happened in this instance. This is what the Secret Service has done against potential assassins in the past.
Third, most folks don't carry side arms even if it's allowed, especially in city that has a very low crime rate. Now in rural areas where police are scarce and response times measured in half hour increments, chances of running into a citizen with a gun dramatically increase.
For example there's a area North West of Antelope Valley where the 911 response time by police is one hour. The police routinely tell folks they have to deal with intruders and other badies on their own. Folks out there do carry. Fourth, rules for civilians and police using guns are quite different. If a civilian accidently shoots a bystander, he goes to jail. If a cop does, he gets a reprimand and goes paid leave for a few weeks. Don't think for a minute that this doesn't factor in to a possible armed response by a gun owner.
Lastly no one makes guns to be a cure all or magic wand, least of all gun owners. The only ones who think this are wealthy white liberals who hate people who own guns and do everything to smear and libel them.
|
|
|
Post by agito on Jan 10, 2011 14:31:04 GMT -6
*sigh* to paraphrase the dude from the big lebowski: "You're not wrong....." The majority of gun deaths in america are SUICIDES" The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with firearms used in 16,907 suicides in the United States during 2004.[6] " I've never been a gun control freak, but now i'm even more non-chalant about it as a non-issue. when i see a gun advocate, i'll jsut think to myself "suicide a-walkin", and this is something that will correct itself over time. regardless- the page also has interesting stats about guns used in self defense ".02%" of all violent crimes. it doesn't say how often it was successful. and yes- i acknowledge source parsing is necessary on a page like that.
|
|
|
Post by fredorbob on Jan 11, 2011 1:26:14 GMT -6
*sigh* to paraphrase the dude from the big lebowski: "You're not wrong....." The majority of gun deaths in america are SUICIDES" The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with firearms used in 16,907 suicides in the United States during 2004.[6] " I've never been a gun control freak, but now i'm even more non-chalant about it as a non-issue. when i see a gun advocate, i'll jsut think to myself "suicide a-walkin", and this is something that will correct itself over time. regardless- the page also has interesting stats about guns used in self defense ".02%" of all violent crimes. it doesn't say how often it was successful. and yes- i acknowledge source parsing is necessary on a page like that. You better pray you die in your sleep and not get something like stomach cancer, you'll be praying for a Gun. Those "suicide a-walkins" are going to be you, even with all your tough talk.
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Jan 11, 2011 6:14:19 GMT -6
40 years ago, maybe, San Francisco and Stockton were #1 and #2 in the US for alcoholism. They were also #1 and #2 for suicides.. I don't know how many of those were by gun.
I've known a number of people to die horribly of cancer, begging for just one more day, including some who were devoted gun guys. I knew of one guy back in the 60s who was dying of lung cancer. The doctor put a red pill at his bedside, with instructions to take it when he could no longer stand the pain. He never took it.
Mental depression is probably linked closer to gun deaths than any other cause.
GB
|
|
|
Post by fredorbob on Jan 11, 2011 6:17:51 GMT -6
40 years ago, maybe, San Francisco and Stockton were #1 and #2 in the US for alcoholism. They were also #1 and #2 for suicides.. I don't know how many of those were by gun. I've known a number of people to die horribly of cancer, begging for just one more day, including some who were devoted gun guys. I knew of one guy back in the 60s who was dying of lung cancer. The doctor put a red pill at his bedside, with instructions to take it when he could no longer stand the pain. He never took it. Mental depression is probably linked closer to gun deaths than any other cause. GB Yeah but having a gun is comforting, you got "options".
|
|
|
Post by agito on Jan 11, 2011 15:06:33 GMT -6
crap- now i've conflated the argument into a euthanasia argument. well...
I support self-determined euthanasia. That wasn't the issue.
The issue .... the issueS ... are that people on the left think that some sort of gun control will lower the number of gun deaths in this country. but if the majority of gun deaths are suicides, there isn't much to be achieved by minimal gun intrusion, and it doesn't change the fact that these are deaths that would come by other means anyway.
MEANWHILE The right thinks that: "Given that most people killed in the U.S. by guns are done by inner city criminals(ethnic minorities against other ethnic minorities) it's something you can't do anything about. And most of it is drug related."
which means the people on the right don't argue with accurate facts either, and it's a little confusing as to whether that argument is in support of gun rights or in support of gun control in the cities. (or maybe "black people shouldn't have guns" ?). what was the point of that argument? especially when it wasn't even true in the first place? IT WAS A FABRICATION OF YOUR WORLDVIEW.
in similar manner are the view of people on the right who think that people on the left want more gun control in the first place. This has resulted in panic buying of artillery and ordinance, (jacking up prices in the process and provoking a supply glut to come down the road which will result in cheaper guns), but there hasn't been a lot of (hell if any) bills put forth in congress to limit gun rights.
which brings me to another side issue: Why do you own your gun? because it strikes me as ironic that a lot of people who own guns haven't really put much thought into it and don't realize how it might end up affecting them down the road.
Own it for hunting? ok- fine. It's what you do. what's the pistol for?
Own it because it's family tradition? I'm ok with that too. be sure to be in compliance with the CAPS regulation so that you can continue the family tradition.
Own it for home protection? now that's just stupid. for the price of a gun you can have a years worth of ADP protection with the added bonus that your house is protected even while you aren't there. (and there might be discounts on your homeowners insurance or it might be a tax write off for those who work at home)
Own it because you think it makes you come across as a bad-ass (don't laugh- this seems to be my girlfriend's brother's motivation)? i'm not impressed.
I am willing to bet that if you looked at donations to the brady group, you would find even those donations are down.
I do have to say though- from a purely statistical point of view, banning ammo clips over 15 rounds seems minimally intrusive and looks like it can do more to save lives.
but i'd rather the political time and effort went into preventing excessive financial inequalities and ALL crimes
|
|
huck
Contributor
Posts: 81
|
Post by huck on Jan 11, 2011 16:10:21 GMT -6
The issue .... the issueS ... are that people on the left think that some sort of gun control will lower the number of gun deaths in this country. but if the majority of gun deaths are suicides, there isn't much to be achieved by minimal gun intrusion, and it doesn't change the fact that these are deaths that would come by other means anyway. Better gun control has lowered the number of gun deaths in this country. In the late 60's two kids a day were getting killed by accidental discharge of pre-loaded handguns within easy access. The NRA worked on the instructional side telling people how stupid it was to keep loaded guns where kids can get them, and i am pretty sure there were a number of localities that instituted gun-safe laws and now trigger lock laws are not uncommon. Now the death of children in this manner is rare. It is wrong to think that because someone supports gun control, they support gun suppression as well. People do a lot of stupid things with guns, and i think gun control laws have their place. Rules that require training and certification and background checks before you get a concealed permit are just fine with me. That is also gun control. In some cases it is called for, like not being able to bring a gun into a federal courtroom.
|
|