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Post by jacquelope on May 4, 2011 1:57:35 GMT -6
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Post by waltc on May 4, 2011 11:28:02 GMT -6
Wow, msmith would be right at home with the Nazis or Communists. They to, regarded people as nothing but cogs that had no rights at all.
But a lot of well off folks seem to have such views, though rarely are they this explicit about them. Take Barry Ritholtz's The Big Picture blog. As a successful Wall Street adviser, he loves the current status quo and see's nothing wrong with out of control trade inbalances, Goldman-Sachs front-running and other crooked endeavors by his class.
Yet the guy is terrified of populists of any sort and anyone like Matt Tiabbi that openly exposes the criminal activities of his class.
In short, the rich aren't like us at all. They are very much practitioners of class warfare. The problem is, is that the middle-class doesn't see it.
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Post by blueneck on May 4, 2011 13:22:47 GMT -6
sociopathology, greed, selfishness and pettiness are common personality traits among folks that lean toward extreme righty views
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on May 4, 2011 23:21:29 GMT -6
Sickening.
More sickening is that a lot of us (myself included) were sucked into this idiotic belief system.
For example, my life's goal as a youth was to be a professional baseball player. I was brainwashed into thinking "you can do anything you want to do, if you try hard enough." It took years to finally discover this was simply NOT true.
It was complete B.S. Some are born with more than others--be it skills, natural aptitudes, or wealth. As such, they ascend to higher societal, professional, and income levels.
The following phrase perfectly exemplifies this lunacy.
"The plain implication being that poverty is its own reward; the un-rich are so because that's all they deserve. They just don't try hard enough - lack of opportunity or fortune is nothing to do with it."
Another point worth making: The products of these "innovators" and "producers" have no value at all without the demand created by the rest of us non-innovators.
The rich have always looked for ways to justify their affluence--and how to justify why it's "good" that they have so much more than the rest of us.
Though those justifications are still widely accepted, there appears to be growing number of those who do not accept those justifications.
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Post by jacquelope on May 5, 2011 12:31:03 GMT -6
Sickening. More sickening is that a lot of us (myself included) were sucked into this idiotic belief system. Same here. I mean, I am ambitious and I see nothing wrong with that, and I own a successful business... but when I was a kid I wanted to be a billionaire. You're not a failure if you're not a billionaire. The time is coming where billions of dollars won't mean jack monkey squat. It's then that you learn that your ambitions, whatever they are, should not lead you to step on people on your way up. Friends, family and good will are the cornerstone of any ambitions, if your strategy for success doesn't include helping others and cooperating with the regular folk, then your ambitions are poorly thought-out. You never know when the fall will come and you'll be looking to them for help. For instance remember those professional baseball players? If the dollar crashes the way some pundits say it is, they're not gonna be as rich as someone who has made friends with the farmers, engineers and people who will be looked at to keep their community going. For all their money and ambitions they're gonna be pretty resource-insecure.
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Post by blueneck on May 5, 2011 20:57:32 GMT -6
It was not too long after college that I realized that it really didn't matter so much what you knew, or how hard you wroked, it was all about who you knew and what class you were born into that was the primary predictor of your ultimate success
sure there are examples of those that brke through, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. and this has never been more true than today
Social darwinism is most certainly alive and well among folks like the jackass that made the blob statement
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Post by jacquelope on May 6, 2011 9:44:27 GMT -6
It was not too long after college that I realized that it really didn't matter so much what you knew, or how hard you wroked, it was all about who you knew and what class you were born into that was the primary predictor of your ultimate success sure there are examples of those that brke through, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. and this has never been more true than today Social darwinism is most certainly alive and well among folks like the jackass that made the blob statement People don't realize that because they still believe that somehow they will be successful if only they work harder. I wonder if anyone ever recall the game of musical chairs?
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Post by jacquelope on May 10, 2011 5:18:55 GMT -6
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Post by waltc on May 10, 2011 10:31:19 GMT -6
My reply would be this:
Offshoring of American manufacturing did indeed result in lower costs of some consumer goods(like electronics). But at the same it reduced the ability to purchase said goods to a large extent due to loss of well paying jobs that were off-shored(real wage). This decline was only off-set by various bubbles created on Wall Street - credit card, mortgage and Dot. Com bubbles created a large amount of temporary and artificial wealth among middle and working class Americans to keep the illusion going.
Worse many of the goods made in Asia are of such low quality that many aren't worth buying. You get what you pay for.
As to the poor slob working at Wal-Mart, he'd be far better off working in a factory that paid a decent wage and benefits package that would allow to not to be a drain on society rather as it is among the typical Wal-Mart worker(most are part time, minimum wage and given instructions how to file for food stamps when they are hired).
One last thing: The credit/money bubbles created by Wall Street also did something else, they acted as a narcotic like Heroin among the populace. It created the illusion among them that all was well when in reality they were being eaten alive by rats in some back-alley. And the rats in this case being the rich and bankers.
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Post by nailbender on May 10, 2011 14:04:33 GMT -6
Walt wrote: One last thing: The credit/money bubbles created by Wall Street also did something else, they acted as a narcotic like Heroin among the populace. It created the illusion among them that all was well when in reality they were being eaten alive by rats in some back-alley. And the rats in this case being the rich and bankers. Read more: unlawflcombatnt.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=9016#ixzz1Lyvud8cBWell said, the sad part is you are not exaggerating.
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Post by jacquelope on May 10, 2011 19:57:00 GMT -6
My reply would be this: Offshoring of American manufacturing did indeed result in lower costs of some consumer goods(like electronics). But at the same it reduced the ability to purchase said goods to a large extent due to loss of well paying jobs that were off-shored(real wage). This decline was only off-set by various bubbles created on Wall Street - credit card, mortgage and Dot. Com bubbles created a large amount of temporary and artificial wealth among middle and working class Americans to keep the illusion going. That place is a complete den of pro-offshoring madness. Care to come over and enjoy some rhetorical target practice?
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Post by waltc on May 12, 2011 19:09:10 GMT -6
One problem is that this particular population segment has convinced themselves(thanks to Rove and the GOP machine) that what is good for the very rich is good for them and taken it to the point of religious dogma.
This is also in fact the gist of all GOP propaganda: 'What's good for the rich is good for you.' Along with 'money needs a voice in politics too'.
I've talked with rank and file GOP supporters and they see nothing wrong with the rich having more influence on the government than them. They've been so propagandized they don't even know what a Democratic-Republic is anymore.
They also confuse people with money as closer to G-d. Calvinism is alive and well with them.
The only way people like this and the ones on straightdope learn is to become poor.
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Post by fredorbob on May 18, 2011 5:04:07 GMT -6
The title made me think this was some sort of Green thing.
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Post by fredorbob on May 18, 2011 5:07:29 GMT -6
It was not too long after college that I realized that it really didn't matter so much what you knew, or how hard you wroked, it was all about who you knew and what class you were born into that was the primary predictor of your ultimate success sure there are examples of those that brke through, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. and this has never been more true than today Social darwinism is most certainly alive and well among folks like the jackass that made the blob statement The lower and mid rungs on the ladder have been knocked out by cheap foreign labor; and high land prices. High population density increases the cost of land.
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Post by fredorbob on May 18, 2011 5:09:27 GMT -6
My reply would be this: Offshoring of American manufacturing did indeed result in lower costs of some consumer goods(like electronics). But at the same it reduced the ability to purchase said goods to a large extent due to loss of well paying jobs that were off-shored(real wage). This decline was only off-set by various bubbles created on Wall Street - credit card, mortgage and Dot. Com bubbles created a large amount of temporary and artificial wealth among middle and working class Americans to keep the illusion going. That place is a complete den of pro-offshoring madness. Care to come over and enjoy some rhetorical target practice? I keep getting banned from forums, I don't know what the fuck their problem is, bunch of cunts.
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Post by fredorbob on May 18, 2011 5:13:31 GMT -6
My reply would be this: Offshoring of American manufacturing did indeed result in lower costs of some consumer goods(like electronics). But at the same it reduced the ability to purchase said goods to a large extent due to loss of well paying jobs that were off-shored(real wage). This decline was only off-set by various bubbles created on Wall Street - credit card, mortgage and Dot. Com bubbles created a large amount of temporary and artificial wealth among middle and working class Americans to keep the illusion going. Worse many of the goods made in Asia are of such low quality that many aren't worth buying. You get what you pay for. As to the poor slob working at Wal-Mart, he'd be far better off working in a factory that paid a decent wage and benefits package that would allow to not to be a drain on society rather as it is among the typical Wal-Mart worker(most are part time, minimum wage and given instructions how to file for food stamps when they are hired). One last thing: The credit/money bubbles created by Wall Street also did something else, they acted as a narcotic like Heroin among the populace. It created the illusion among them that all was well when in reality they were being eaten alive by rats in some back-alley. And the rats in this case being the rich and bankers. Sorry but foreign goods from free trade isn't cheaper. The massive devaluation of the dollar from de-industrialization, the cumulative trade deficit, has increased the price of goods; it has contributed significantly, if not the only contributor, to price inflation. Price inflation without wage inflation is what we got.
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Post by jacquelope on May 18, 2011 8:19:47 GMT -6
That place is a complete den of pro-offshoring madness. Care to come over and enjoy some rhetorical target practice? I keep getting banned from forums, I don't know what the fuck their problem is, bunch of cunts. They didn't even give you a single warning? Those guys are SCARED of facing a large number of anti-offshoring people. Jeez.
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Post by fredorbob on May 18, 2011 12:04:23 GMT -6
I keep getting banned from forums, I don't know what the fuck their problem is, bunch of cunts. They didn't even give you a single warning? Those guys are SCARED of facing a large number of anti-offshoring people. Jeez. nah, I just swear sometimes and act like a asshole.
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Post by jacquelope on May 23, 2011 12:42:04 GMT -6
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Ted
Contributor
Posts: 18
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Post by Ted on May 23, 2011 14:01:53 GMT -6
How insufferably tedious, Jacquelope. I commend your persistence in making your point but you should be ashamed at yourself for engaging in a war of wits with a bunch of unarmed persons.
Obviously lacking in development skills for anything other than redistribution-model businesses, your opponents will never have the related experience or intellectual capacity to understand what you are attempting to teach them, no matter how much you "dumb it down."
I salute you for your efforts and, I suppose, they can hardly be called wasted. If you succeed in making even one person digress from their pathology of sycophantic arrogance, you will have done the world a service.
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Post by jacquelope on May 23, 2011 21:36:44 GMT -6
Many thanks, Ted.
I went to the Straight Dope to mine them for any arguments they might come up with to support offshoring, and to also leave ammunition lying around for other anti-offshoring people to use when the arguments were over.
I must say that the insults and hard line presented by those guys wouldn't be so hard line if they were faced with a large opposition. 10 anti-offshoring people on there working together would send them scurrying away. They're bullies like that.
It's like that in real life, too. We need to come out in force and catch the enemy out in the open, like Wisconsin did to the recent Tea Party rally. They must know us, our numbers, and our fury. They will inevitably back down if we are as resolute as they are.
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Post by jacquelope on May 24, 2011 19:41:08 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on May 26, 2011 8:44:48 GMT -6
How insufferably tedious, Jacquelope. I commend your persistence in making your point but you should be ashamed at yourself for engaging in a war of wits with a bunch of unarmed persons. Obviously lacking in development skills for anything other than redistribution-model businesses, your opponents will never have the related experience or intellectual capacity to understand what you are attempting to teach them, no matter how much you "dumb it down." I salute you for your efforts and, I suppose, they can hardly be called wasted. If you succeed in making even one person digress from their pathology of sycophantic arrogance, you will have done the world a service. I wish you guys would stop using the phrase "cheap foreign goods" in your battle of wits, cause it implies that imports are cheaper then made in the 1st world. Try the phrase "inflation causing foreign goods" or "dollar killing foreign goods" or "job killing foreign goods" or "expensive foreign goods". "cheap foreign goods" is an anachronism, it only applies when there is a total balance of trade or surplus, which aint today.
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Post by blueneck on May 26, 2011 9:34:04 GMT -6
I use the terminology "cheap" to refer to poor quality and low value, which does apply to foreing imports, even though the price is not really cheap, especially when factoring in the total externalized costs of offhoring.
however point well taken, I will conciously try not to refer to them as cheap, at least in terms of price, foreign goods
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Post by jacquelope on May 28, 2011 13:07:52 GMT -6
[ wish you guys would stop using the phrase "cheap foreign goods" in your battle of wits, cause it implies that imports are cheaper then made in the 1st world. Try the phrase "inflation causing foreign goods" or "dollar killing foreign goods" or "job killing foreign goods" or "expensive foreign goods". "cheap foreign goods" is an anachronism, it only applies when there is a total balance of trade or surplus, which aint today. Ah yes, like my favorite pet peeve "cheap oil", which is not cheap because of all the externalities (the damage it does to the environment and people's health, see: smog). We're letting the propagandists frame the entire tone of the discussion.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on May 28, 2011 17:56:24 GMT -6
How insufferably tedious, Jacquelope. I commend your persistence in making your point but you should be ashamed at yourself for engaging in a war of wits with a bunch of unarmed persons. Obviously lacking in development skills for anything other than redistribution-model businesses, your opponents will never have the related experience or intellectual capacity to understand what you are attempting to teach them, no matter how much you "dumb it down." I salute you for your efforts and, I suppose, they can hardly be called wasted. If you succeed in making even one person digress from their pathology of sycophantic arrogance, you will have done the world a service. I wish you guys would stop using the phrase "cheap foreign goods" in your battle of wits, cause it implies that imports are cheaper then made in the 1st world. Try the phrase "inflation causing foreign goods" or "dollar killing foreign goods" or "job killing foreign goods" or "expensive foreign goods". "cheap foreign goods" is an anachronism, it only applies when there is a total balance of trade or surplus, which aint today. I use the term cheap-labor-produced goods. Also, even if the price is low, the goods have to be replaced so often that it eliminates any price advantage.
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Post by fredorbob on May 28, 2011 19:20:30 GMT -6
I wish you guys would stop using the phrase "cheap foreign goods" in your battle of wits, cause it implies that imports are cheaper then made in the 1st world. Try the phrase "inflation causing foreign goods" or "dollar killing foreign goods" or "job killing foreign goods" or "expensive foreign goods". "cheap foreign goods" is an anachronism, it only applies when there is a total balance of trade or surplus, which aint today. I use the term cheap-labor-produced goods. Also, even if the price is low, the goods have to be replaced so often that it eliminates any price advantage. Well that 7+ trillion dollar cumulative trade deficit devalues the dollar to the point where imported Levis cost twice as much as they cost in the 1980's, and in the 1980's those Levis were made in America. Same quality, different price. About 1.5 trillion dollars in cash floating around in the US, 7+ trillion dollar accumulative trade deficit over 20 years, one is greater than the other. The Trade deficit is the primary driver of inflation and there comes a point, like in oil, where it starts to inflate the prices of items made in America. There also comes a point in time where American manufacturers and investors know there is no point in competing with foreign slave labor; even if American manufactures can undercut foreign competition in the short term they know they can always be undercut in the future forever. It's sort of like how a monopoly operates. So literally made in China is literally more expensive than made in America even with: A) Same quality B) Same environmental impact
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Post by fredorbob on May 28, 2011 19:21:55 GMT -6
[ wish you guys would stop using the phrase "cheap foreign goods" in your battle of wits, cause it implies that imports are cheaper then made in the 1st world. Try the phrase "inflation causing foreign goods" or "dollar killing foreign goods" or "job killing foreign goods" or "expensive foreign goods". "cheap foreign goods" is an anachronism, it only applies when there is a total balance of trade or surplus, which aint today. Ah yes, like my favorite pet peeve "cheap oil", which is not cheap because of all the externalities (the damage it does to the environment and people's health, see: smog). We're letting the propagandists frame the entire tone of the discussion. I mean imports are literally more expensive than made in America.
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Post by jacquelope on Jun 18, 2011 20:38:15 GMT -6
The posterboy for economic idiocy, msmith537, is at it again. boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13929936&postcount=14He's speaking in general about workers whose jobs go overseas. Thiat means factory workers, programmers, biotech researchers, everyone, all their jobs can be done by anyone off the street. His planet is indeed a strange planet.
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Post by spudbuddy on Jul 2, 2011 14:27:43 GMT -6
Sickening. The rich have always looked for ways to justify their affluence--and how to justify why it's "good" that they have so much more than the rest of us. Though those justifications are still widely accepted, there appears to be growing number of those who do not accept those justifications. I agree, and I think that's exactly it - needing to justify the affluence (as if, in itself, this affluence is a done deal and justifiable no matter how it came about.) The economic playing board has been set up to create affluence opportunities, (unsustainable) as opposed to creating greater measures of sustenance toward the common good. (funny - pathetically so.......how that word "common" raises the patrician sneer in so many rich and privileged people.)
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