|
Post by graybeard on Oct 16, 2008 14:47:31 GMT -6
By Ryan J. Donmoyer
Oct. 16 (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were highlighted by John McCain in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes.
According to records on file with the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, the state filed a tax lien against Samuel J. Wurzelbacher for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active.
Wurzelbacher was thrust into the national spotlight this week when he told Obama he worried that the Illinois senator's proposals to roll back Bush administration tax breaks for Americans earning more than $250,000 would prevent him from buying a plumbing business that would earn between $250,000 and $280,000 a year.
McCain, an Arizona Republican senator, pointed to the exchange during the debate last night when he turned to the camera and said, ``I will not stand for a tax increase on small-business income.'' Directly criticizing Obama, he added, ``what you want to do to `Joe the plumber' and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.''
Today, at a rally in Downingtown, Pennsylvania, McCain said ``the real winner last night was `Joe the plumber.'''
On Oct. 12, as Obama was campaigning door-to-door in suburban Toledo, Wurzelbacher confronted the Democratic presidential nominee about his tax plan. ...
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Oct 16, 2008 21:10:00 GMT -6
In my view, McCain made a real idiot out of himself on the "Joe-the-plumber" story. If Joe-the-plummer invests any of that $250 K in buying more equipment or other business related spending, he can deduct it dollar-for-dollar from his taxable income. Which means he'll be paying taxes on less than $250K, and consequently will not be paying any higher taxes.
Even though I've never considered myself a "small businessman", I have had to pay people that worked with me from a larger pool of money. If I brought in $750K total, and paid out $600K in salary to workers, my net income would be only $150K. That puts me under the $250K tax bracket that Obama refers to.
Joe the plummer is NOT going to pay any more tax under Obama's plan, unless his net personal income is at least $250K. If he really wants to "invest" some of that $250K in his business, he won't be paying any higher taxes either, because his net personal income will now be less than $250K.
If he makes $280K, and "invests" $31K in his business, he still won't be paying any higher taxes under Obama's plan
McCain's argument is complete B.S.
Obama should have buried McCain on this point, instead of crying about the "unfair" attacks on him regarding Bill Ayres. (No one really cares in the first place, except those who weren't going to vote for him anyway.)
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Oct 16, 2008 22:36:48 GMT -6
Turns out Joe is not a licensed plumber, and he made only $40K in 2006, meaning he would have kept $500 more under Obama than under McCain. Not only that, his boss says the business isn't for sale, and his profit is about $100K.
Also, Olbie said something about him being on the RW talk shows earlier, meaning the whole thing may have been to trap Obama.
Regardless, Joe may have more going for him than Sarah the screecher. Her voice is the closest to Eleanor Roosevelt I've heard.
GB
|
|
|
Post by blueneck on Oct 17, 2008 8:46:20 GMT -6
Joe was likely a shill
doesn't have a plumbing license, and his boss says the business isn't for sale
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Oct 17, 2008 9:10:41 GMT -6
McCain May Stumble With Focus on `Joe the Plumber' (Update1)
By Ryan J. Donmoyer and Kristin Jensen
Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- John McCain's bid to shore up his poll numbers by highlighting ``Joe the plumber'' may backfire.
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, the Toledo plumber who criticized the tax proposals of Democratic nominee Barack Obama, owes back taxes, isn't licensed or registered in Ohio and would fare only slightly better under McCain's tax agenda than under Obama's even if his income soared.
McCain this week thrust Wurzelbacher into the national spotlight as a symbol of overtaxed small-business owners after Obama opened clear leads in many states. Analysts said Wurzelbacher's circumstances have muddled McCain's effort to profit politically from the tax issue, making it unlikely ``Joe the plumber'' will have any more long-term benefit for his campaign than did the selection of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate.
``Joe the plumber will have the same trajectory as Sarah Palin, but it will be tracked in hours rather than weeks,'' said Thomas Mann, a scholar at Washington's Brookings Institution.
During the last presidential debate, Oct. 15, McCain said that what Obama would ``do to `Joe the plumber' and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.''
The problem for McCain, tax analysts said, is that the underlying premise that Wurzelbacher would face higher taxes under Obama is neither true nor typical of how the vast majority of small businesses would fare.
Buy a Business
Wurzelbacher told Obama Oct. 12 as the Illinois senator canvassed his neighborhood that he was about to buy a business that earns as much as $280,000 a year.
``Do you believe in the American dream?'' Wurzelbacher asked Obama, citing the Democrat's proposed tax rate increase for Americans earning more than $250,000. ``I'm being taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream.''
Wurzelbacher hasn't paid the taxes he already owes, according to the state of Ohio, which placed a tax lien against him for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active. A second judgment against him was filed in March, 2007 by St. Charles Mercy Hospital for $1,261, records show.
The company McCain said the plumber wants to buy has annual sales of $510,000, according to an analysis by Dun & Bradstreet. That makes it unlikely that Wurzelbacher's purchase would give him a taxable income of more than $200,000 -- leaving him unaffected by Obama's proposal to roll back tax breaks for those earning more than $250,000, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients.
Few Businesses Affected
Few such small businesses have enough income to be affected by Obama's tax changes, Bankler said.
One other problem in making Wurzelbacher a symbol of the overtaxed: he would pay just $773 more in taxes under Obama's plan than McCain's if he did earn an adjusted gross income of $280,000, according to an analysis by the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is critical of high taxes.
Earning that much would make Wurzelbacher very unusual among small businesses. According to the Internal Revenue Service, most small businesses organize in ways that allow their owners to pay taxes at personal rates rather than as corporations, which impose a second layer of taxes. Almost 95 percent of 21.5 million owners of small businesses who file as sole proprietors had receipts under $100,000 in 2007.
Another 4 million businesses organize as so-called subchapter S corporations, according to IRS data; less than 5 percent of them earn more than $200,000.
`No Joe Six-Pack'
If Wurzelbacher managed to earn $280,000, ``he's not an average Joe Six-Pack,'' said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation.
``Rather than a game-changing blow for the McCain campaign, `Joe the plumber' is turning into a bad case of blowback,'' said Rogan Kersh, a public service professor at New York University.
Still, McCain is making an appeal to the white working class, a demographic ``disproportionately represented in many swing states,'' said Karlyn Bowman, an analyst at Washington's American Enterprise Institute. ``That's Joe's group.''
The tax lien was filed in January 2007, six months after the state certified a delinquency for the taxes, said Ray Ann Estep, section chief for revenue-recovery services for the Ohio attorney general.
``Unfortunately, sometimes people don't resolve their debts as quickly as we would like them to,'' she said.
No License
Wurzelbacher doesn't have a plumber's license and isn't registered as a plumber in Ohio, the Toledo Blade reported on its Web site yesterday. His employer has a state plumbing license, the newspaper said.
Before living in Ohio, Wurzelbacher was a resident of Mesa, Arizona, in McCain's home state, according to property records.
McCain gave Wurzelbacher an apology yesterday for throwing him into the spotlight.
``Joe, if you're watching, I'm sorry,'' McCain said on CBS Corp.'s ``Late Show'' hosted by David Letterman. ``But from what I've read, and I have not talked to him, but from what I've read, he's taken it pretty well.''
To contact the reporter on this story: Ryan J. Donmoyer in Washington at o rdonmoyer@bloomberg.net
|
|
|
Post by blueneck on Oct 17, 2008 9:23:10 GMT -6
Joe the plumber is a living "straw man"
set up a hypothetical situation and then knock it down - he is dealing purely in a hypothetical business transaction, not reality you can make a hypothetical anything you want to try to use it to prove your position
a common right wing tactic
Never the less, yet another missed opportunity for the left to drive home the point that not only should the wealthy pay more in taxes, they have a moral onbligation to do so. It is precisely because of the taxpayer provided infrastructure and govt protection that allows the wealthy to flourish.
As TR famously said, the wealthy beneifti greatly from the privileges of a free society and therefore have an obligation to contribute back to it.
|
|
|
Post by Waltc on Oct 17, 2008 11:37:27 GMT -6
Never the less, yet another missed opportunity for the left to drive home the point that not only should the wealthy pay more in taxes, they have a moral onbligation to do so. It is precisely because of the taxpayer provided infrastructure and govt protection that allows the wealthy to flourish.
In theory.
In practice the Left(Marxists and American haters, not FDR type Democrats) defines anyone who owns a house and works for a living as rich and thus deserving of taxes. It it is also rare for the Left to only raise taxes on the rich(who usually have powerful lobbyists and own most Democratic leaders like Obama, Pelosi and Reid). Generally they love to apply regressive consumption taxes and raise property and vehicle taxes on ordinary people.
This is why initiatives like Prop 13 get passed or why tax the shit out of the working class Democrats like Grey Davis get thrown out of office. Because they prefer preying on the lower classes vs. taxing the wealthy.
Worse the Left despises the working and middle-class - they are essentially anti-populist. You never see Lefties(who are mostly folks born into wealth and don't know what work is) fighting against H1-B workers, off-shoring or illegal immigration(something the Left actually supports).
|
|
|
Post by blueneck on Oct 17, 2008 12:17:09 GMT -6
I should clarify - labor/populist left, not the elitist left two entirely different entities
much like true conservatives and neoconservatives
|
|
|
Post by proletariat on Oct 17, 2008 15:35:43 GMT -6
Isn't the term you are looking for liberal instead of leftist. A leftist to me is fundamentally different from a liberal. Liberals always end up taxing the shit out of the working class because they don't share their class interests. For example, liberals are drawn to gasoline, cigarette, user fees etc and other regressive taxes because they seen so "small".
What gets me is the liberals in my state have a fit at requiring an ID to vote because its too cumbersome. The irony is its them that have pushed getting a license or ID up in the $100 range.
|
|
|
Post by Waltc on Oct 18, 2008 18:54:59 GMT -6
Liberal may be a better term. However it is they who have power in the Democratic party and have since they hijacked it back LBJ's day and got rid of the FDR Democrats and told the working class to drop dead.
They are also wealthy and powerful enough to stop any sort of grass roots attempts at reforming the party. I realized this after being part of a so-called "progressive" organization for several years that was supposedly supporting reform but in reality the "progressives" were nothing but liberals in disguise and weren't interested in reform whatsoever. All they wanted was my money.
That said, Obama is right out of the Ted Kennedy school of tax and spend. Obama won't be allowed to raise the taxes on the rich to any extent given how much influence rich and Wall Street have over the Democratic Congress(see Paulson's bailout for just one example). Its election year gimmickry.
Doubt it? You think Reid, Schumer, Pelosi and Hoyer are going to tax the people that fund their campaigns, you have another thing coming.
Obama will be forced to tax ordinary Americans for his social programs for those who don't want to work or pay for college.
The blowback is gonna be a bitch. Obama and the Democrats don't get that a lot of their support is provisional and from people pissed at the GOP and want to hurt them. However once they realize Obama can't deliver, he's toast.
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Oct 18, 2008 21:38:05 GMT -6
Never the less, yet another missed opportunity for the left to drive home the point that not only should the wealthy pay more in taxes, they have a moral onbligation to do so. It is precisely because of the taxpayer provided infrastructure and govt protection that allows the wealthy to flourish. As TR famously said, the wealthy beneifti greatly from the privileges of a free society and therefore have an obligation to contribute back to it. Right on, Blueneck. The rich should pay more because they have benefited more, and also because they can afford to pay more. It's really that simple. Reduce a poor person's tax by $1,000 per year, and they'll spend that $1,000 right back into the economy. Cut a millionaire's taxes $1,000 per year, and it won't change their spending any. The poor person's $1,000 would have gone straight into the economy, increasing demand for production and demand for labor. In contrast, the millionaire's $1,000 goes straight into his Cayman Islands account, or straight into the Chinese production market, to produce goods to export to the US, thus competing with goods produced by Americans, and driving down American wages as a result.
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Oct 19, 2008 7:13:32 GMT -6
"That said, Obama is right out of the Ted Kennedy school of tax and spend."
Uh, the last Damocratic administration ended with a balanced budget. Bu$h, right out of the "Reagan School of Borrow and Spend Lots More," has doubled our debt to over $10 Trillion.
Cash on delivery is the cheapest way to buy almost anything, yet numbskull "Conservatives" borrow us into bankruptcy. They are to blame for making tax a dirty word, and for the resulting bursting of the bubble.
In the last 8 years, we have gone from the richest nation to the largest debtor nation in the history of the world. We are beholden to Japan, Communist China and third world nations for our very economic survival. Thanks, Numbskulls.
GB
|
|
|
Post by agito on Oct 19, 2008 9:32:12 GMT -6
granted I try to be in the center, but this isn't my definition of rich. My definition of rich is anyone that makes more money off of investments and money than they do off of their own labor.
And understandably, those are the people who have the most to lose from a failed infrastructure and should even want higher taxes to insure that doesn't happen. elections should be about finding the person that will best spend that money, not avoid it.
|
|
|
Post by Waltc on Oct 19, 2008 12:01:05 GMT -6
Greybeard,
Clinton was a corporate Democrat. He killed Glass-Stegall which set the stage for our current financial disaster, he signed NAFTA which gutted manufacturing and sent millions of well paying jobs to Mexico and eventually China.
He granted PNTR for China which helped create our massive trade imbalances and destroy even more of our tech and manufacturing sectors.
He supported increasing H1-B guest workers for high tech sector.
In short Clinton was no friend of the average American, he waged constant war against the working and middle-class American through trade and industrial policies and the effects of which are felt today by many Americans.
It was also these policies that put Bush in the White House by alienating most of the white working and middle-class.
And yet Democrats worship that pig.
|
|
|
Post by redwolf on Oct 20, 2008 6:31:25 GMT -6
|
|