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Post by redwolf on Jan 11, 2009 11:12:14 GMT -6
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Jan 11, 2009 16:46:56 GMT -6
I don't know about Nissan, but Toyota easily takes 1st place in the "fugly-mobile" contest. Here's another idea for propping up the American auto industry. Give buyers of American-made electric cars a large tax credit. (All parts for the car would also have to be made in the US, or the car wouldn't qualify.) That would effectively subsidize the American auto industry, and it's conversion to electric cars. But unlike the direct handout to the companies themselves, the subsidy benefits consumers as well. And this would provide perfect incentivization, as it would only occur from increased sales. Thus it couldn't be squirreled away completely by management to pay management bonuses, stockholder dividends, or bondholder interest. Better still, it would increase demand for American-made electric cars, by decreasing the after-tax price of the car for consumers. At the same time, it would increase demand for American workers to produce electric cars — increasing both total employment and wages. And if we provide such a taxpayer-funded subsidy, we could make it mandatory that American car-makers can NEVER sell the new technology to foreign car-makers. Selling such technology would be a felony, with a mandatory 10-year sentence. (You know, something like the same sentence that border patrol agents Ramos & Compean received while doing their job, when they slightly wounded a known felon who was actively committing a felony.)
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Post by graybeard on Jan 11, 2009 19:32:20 GMT -6
That's noble and good, UC, but electric cars are not competitive, and won't be. They've been around more than 100 years, btw, and were thought by some to win the technology race back then. They had about 40 miles range, about the same as the Chvy Volt.
Only gasoline comes close to equaling the energy stored in a gallon of diesel, when you consider the size and weight of any other storage medium. For every pound of battery or other energy storage system, you have to add three pounds of support in terms of tires, brakes, structure, etc. . It's hard to find the numbers, but hybrids appear to weigh 3-500 pounds more than their gasoline equivalent.
GB
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Post by agito on Jan 12, 2009 12:42:34 GMT -6
that actually doesn't matter graybeard. (and yes, it is important to realize that the biggest reason gas engines won out was because it made use of something that was previously no more valuable than sludge in the ground, where electricity was hard to come by and needed to light the planet. But yeah- unless there is some radical breakthrough in engine design, which is possible because combustion engines lose 44% of their energy through heat, we won't find a better energy source for transportation than gasoline)
What the economy needs though is diversification. As long as the tax subsidy is SUSTAINABLE, then electric cars do become competitive. But what the tax policy people should do as well is let everyday workers write off their mass transit costs as a "business expense" - thereby propping up mass transit labor as well as making use of a more efficient means of travel. With those two proposals in place- the average citizen has a lot more freedom to make choices whenever there is an oil shock, and the economy is more resilient against it.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Mar 15, 2009 2:06:11 GMT -6
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Post by graybeard on Mar 15, 2009 8:32:38 GMT -6
At least Tesla has finally published the weight: 2690 lb (est.). . Is that estimated to the nearest 10 pounds, or a total w.a.g.? I bet the gas-powered Lotus this car is based on weighs no more than 2200 lb, and has pretty good performance at about 1/3 the price.
My 1973 Porsche 914 weighed 2200 lb, and had a range of 500 miles at 30 mpg. A VW Beetle weighs about 1800 lb.
The Tesla is a nifty toy for the rich, but hardly a breakthrough. Tesla's cost for replacement battery pack is $30K, which they sell on 7 year advance order for $12K. No, this is not leading the way to a competitive vehicle.
You still can't beat gasoline or diesel for efficiency and economy in a road car. . 6 or 6.9 lb (gallon) will take you 30-50 miles in reasonable comfort. Trucks with room for the extra storage needed for CNG, Compressed Natural Gas, do even better.
GB
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Post by redwolf on Mar 15, 2009 8:38:52 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't know how GM expects the Volt to save them with even a $30,000+ price tag. People will buy less expensive 4-cylinder Toyotas and Hondas instead.
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Post by xtra on Mar 15, 2009 19:29:55 GMT -6
and some people who buy electric cars thinking there gonna save lots of money will be surprised when their states change from the gas tax to a millage tax
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Post by graybeard on Mar 15, 2009 19:35:21 GMT -6
The little Tesla claims to use only 28 kwh per 100 miles, or about 7 cents a mile at the rate we pay in socalif. That's about like 30 mpg at $2 per.
They won't take away the gas tax; just add a mileage tax. To be fair, if a tax ever can be, the mileage tax should be based on the weight of the car. It's the heavy vehicles that tear up the pavement.
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