|
Post by agito on Mar 24, 2010 15:59:46 GMT -6
troubling diary on the frontpage of Dkos right now. After 9/11, the US (arguably) over-reacted. So what happens if evidence of party on party violence turns up? regardless- in the spirit of jeffolie's prediction threads, do you think there will be political violence this year, and how many people will be harmed? 1)none 2)more physical damage, but no hurt individuals 3)1-5 killed, possibly one of which being an office holder 4) something worse? I'm leaning towards 3 right now. one important factor is that there will be elections this year, so hotheads will be blowing off some steam, but if the elections don't turn out the way they want, the violence is most likely to happen in november or december.
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Mar 24, 2010 19:33:01 GMT -6
Before I could take this poll, the msm is reporting physical damage, vandalism today plus death threats against Democrats that voted for Obamacare. Sarah Palin has posted 'bullseyes' on offendining politicians.
So, there is already violence and threats.
|
|
|
Post by agito on Mar 24, 2010 21:06:24 GMT -6
yeah- have to admit the "none" category is a little past the point. Do you think it will be nipped in the bud?
|
|
|
Post by graybeard on Mar 24, 2010 23:06:22 GMT -6
I'm afraid it won't let up until some wacko really goes overboard with something dramatic enough to shock the rest of them, if that's possible.
|
|
|
Post by agito on Mar 25, 2010 0:40:36 GMT -6
I'm really not looking forward to how the left could over-react in that scenario
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Mar 25, 2010 19:36:28 GMT -6
My answer in a bit.
Here's the thing if HCR was pushed through when Clinton was in, there would have been no problems at all. The thing was at that time most Americans were still doing good economically.
But today... it's different, millions have lost their jobs and those jobs won't be coming back(and no attempt by the Democrats to even try). Others have watched their retirement accounts shrink to nothing while Wall Street gets whatever they want from the Democrats despite American people being 300-1 against the rich people bailout.
People are seriously pissed off at Washington.
And what does Washington do? Impose a new mandatory tax on people and gut medicare for old people under the aegis of HCR. People know health-care rationing is coming because of this. This is rubbing salt in wounds of people who work for a living.
Liberals see none of this as usual. Their reading of the American people seems to be limited to the Daily Show and Bill Mahr.
Now my answer:
Things are indeed touchy but I doubt it will beyond property damage at this time.
But...
If Obama/Pelosi rams through illegal alien amnesty or Cap'n Trade then there will be blow back against liberals(perhaps Wall Street firms as well) as both are even bigger hot button issues than HCR.
This is social/political dynamite and the Donkeys and libs just don't know it and it will be to their detriment should they push either piece of legislation through.
Here's the thing, both pieces of legislation are nothing but a form economic war against blue collar and middle-class voters and they know it. And given the hammering these people have taken over the last 2+ years the last thing they want to see is their energy bills go through the roof so Wall Street can even become richer at their expense or giving away citizenship and bennies they can't even get to a bunch of illegals.
But the Donkeys can't help themselves will probably try to pass both before the November mid-terms.
And that's when it will get very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by agito on Mar 27, 2010 13:00:02 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Mar 27, 2010 22:47:19 GMT -6
The original article was removed by the author. Here's another copy of it. I'm reposting it here, not because I agree with it, but because I want to be able to read it and find it again at a later date. www.alien-earth.org/forum/message.php?message=64051&mpage=1&showdate=3/27/10" An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
By Sgt C USMC
It's been said that the military is always preparing for war. That is true. We prepare for combat every day. We ran 5 miles today to the rifle range and shot nearly 200 rounds a piece at targets and then ran back. However, we also pray for peace. I would love one day to be completely unnecessary. But alas, I am a realist, and I know that day will never come.
The headlines of the last week have reminded me more of glimpsing at the S2 Daily Briefing Sheets while in theater or the Al-Jazeera than the NY Times or the Washington Post. Think about that for a moment, let it sink in.
Before I get into the main premise of this article - I need to make two statements here.
First and foremost , when it comes to the back and forth of who did what to whom and why - I don't give a @!$%#. It doesn't change the action. In life we're judged by our actions, nothing more, nothing less. One of the greatest things of the military is when it comes to an enemy, the politics behind the situation - don't matter in accomplishing that mission. For the military , life is simple in that regard.
Secondly, Regardless of your political ideology, you've earned the right as US Citizens to say your piece - no matter how wrong it may be. That is your right, and I will give my life to protect it.
But this government of ours is a democracy. We vote for our representatives, and they vote in our interests. Sometimes, the votes don't go our way. That's life, better luck next time. Exhaust your legislative options, and then focus on gaining the required votes and/or seats to achieve your desired legislative vote next election time. That's the way things work.
But the SECOND you start committing acts of violence and vandalism, then you've usurped that Constitution. You in a way have assaulted it. And then you and I (I being every servicemember who has sworn to defend said Constitution) will have a MAJOR PROBLEM.
For those of you calling for a civil war, I implore you to stop and think about what you're saying. Look around your neighborhood and your city. Now imagine using that terrain to survive. Imagine dodging semi-automatic rifle fire as you scramble from cover to cover, dragging your wounded child behind you. Imagine the deafening report of a mortar as it strikes the ground a 150 feet in front of you, the overpressure enough to shatter your teeth and perforate an ear drum. Try and envision a Stryker rolling through neighbor's front lawn or a F/A-18 making lazy loops over your head in Close Air Support for the troops in the distance.
Now with that vision in mind, stop by your local Marine Corps base, being they will be the first military units you'd face in an all out 'civil war' . Look at them for a moment, examine their 'work environment' . They're running the track, they're climbing ropes, they're grappelling with each other in mock hand-to-hand combat, and shooting targets while moving in raid lines on a daily basis. Nearly everyone on that base, down to our 'secretaries' has a combat award of one type or another, they've faced some of the most stressful situations on Earth where succumbing to the stress can get you killed, and they flourished.
Now ask yourselves and be honest - when is the last time you've run anything other than late to work, climbed anything other than a flight of stairs, grappelled with anything other than a paper jam, and shot off anything other than your mouth? When's the last time you were in any situation more stressful than a traffic jam?
Now I'm not blaming you for your career choice, not in the least. I can't think of a single job that's not useful in some way or another. I just want you to simply compare and contrast your work environment with ours and ask yourselves "Who is better suited to win this battle ?" We both know the answer here, and if you doubt that answer, look at the results from Fallujah in 2004. Over 1200 of them 'lost' and we 'lost only 28. That's a 'win-ratio' of almost 60-1, and they've been fighting their whole lives.
Put this in another scenario. You and your officemates think your local pro football team sucks , so you put together your own team of the best your company has and challenge them to a game. Even if your team might be good, they're professionals. This is their job. Your job is to answer phones and type on a keyboard. In short, they've forgotten more than you will ever know about football. The result, will be a slaughter for you, and a practice for them. But at least you'll get a chance to sit at home, ice your wounds and say 'whew I never should've done that!'
Not so with combat. The results of combat are far...FAR..more permanent. There are no second chances, no time for regrets, and no do-overs. This is not Call of Duty.
Now I 'd like to disperse a myth here - many of you think that US military would not fight civilians. I can't speak for all, but in my case - the moment you declare civil war, you're no longer civilians. The moment you attack the constitution, you're now enemies of that constitution. And I swore to defend and support and if necessary give my life for that Constitution and utilize every tool, technique, and weapon at my disposal to do so. And trust me, I'm not alone.
I hope some of you heed my words and cool the rhetoric and focus on achieving your goals diplomatically instead of physically. It would never want to receive a frag order to Maryland, or North Dakota, or Texas, but it is an order I will follow no matter how much it pains me to do so.
christopher-calbat.newsvine.com/_news/2010/03/26/4073188-an-article-i-wish-i-would-never-have-to-w rite-to-those-calling-for-a-civil-war-this-marine-wants-you-to-stop-and-think?pc=25&sp=0#discussion linky poo Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 7:40 am RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Get desperate if you're starting to threaten the population. Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 8:21 am RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Op you are a outta shape soldier.I would luv to drop you over vaccinaated ass on a steep climb on my trek.5 miles? Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 4:32 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 4:49 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Our country is a Democratic Republic! Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 4:52 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
I guess this is why so many dumb idealists have died a senseless death for what cause? Finally, when there is a valid reason to defend our constitution that's been ripped to shreds, some cowboy wants to declare war on the natives. Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 5:02 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
I see teabaggers are having reading comprehension problems again Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 5:04 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Finally, when there is a valid reason to defend our constitution that's been ripped to shreds,
Ultraviolet 3/27/2010 5:51 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
At least King George used his own money to oppress us instead of our own - that was at least decent. Anonymous Coward 3/27/2010 6:29 pm RE: An article I wish I would never have to write - To those calling for a civil war,
Ultraviolet 3/27/2010 5:51 pm
At least King George used his own money to oppress us instead of our own - that was at least decent.
From the one who pastes Sorcha as truth. You should have your Meds checked."
|
|
|
Post by unlawflcombatnt on Mar 28, 2010 1:54:12 GMT -6
Here's someone's response to this Marine's commentary (followed by my own) US Marine: I will Fight American CiviliansBy Grant Lawrence " Marine writes a warning to those calling for Civil War in the US. He says it is an article he wishes he didn’t have to write. He wants those calling for an uprising to stop and think.
He says that Marines are ready to defend the Constitution. That those calling for Civil War have no idea how tough the marines are, what its like to be scramble from semi-automatic fire, or to face other weaponry of war. Not only that, he points out those calling for the civil unrest are out of shape. Not like those that will be sent in to kill them.
The Marine writes in ‘An Article I wish I would never have to write-To those calling for a civil war, this Marine wants you to stop, and think’
[/u] The moment you attack the constitution, you’re now enemies of that constitution. And I swore to defend and support and if necessary give my life for that Constitution and utilize every tool, technique, and weapon at my disposal to do so. And trust me, I’m not alone. I hope some of you heed my words and cool the rhetoric and focus on achieving your goals diplomatically instead of physically. It would never want to receive a frag order to Maryland, or North Dakota, or Texas, but it is an order I will follow no matter how much it pains me to do so…..Source: Newsvine[/ul] There is no name attached to the article but it does say he is a Seargent. We really don’t know if this is a from a real US Marine, or some sort of psy-ops ploy. But the supposed Marine makes some valid points on the military mindset and what would happen in a insurrection. The military will be used effectively against any outbreak of civil unrest. There used to be something called Posse Comitatus which “prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain “law and order” on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.(Source: Wikipedia)“ That act doesn’t seem to apply anymore since the military and military equipment are used in protests and other civil demonstrations and disruptions. In any case, Posse Comitatus will not protect citizens from the American Military in case of a Civil War civil unrest. For well over a decade the American military has been engaging in training exercises in US cities. The Military claims it is preparing for wars in cities because that is where the wars will be fought. They are almost certainly correct. According to Veterans for Peace, Perspective on Military Exercises in Urban Areas, “The Marines claim a need to practice counter-”terrorist” operations in coastal cities. They argue that the “battlescapes of the 21st century” will arise from problems in increasingly congested urban areas where eliminating an “asymmetrical enemy using the city as a shield” will require new tactics and techniques.” There is no doubt these training exercises intimidate the citizenry and perhaps that is there goal. To see these urban war games occurring in urban areas create an atmosphere of fear and tension which serves to inhibit people. But there is also likely something more going on in these urban war simulations. It is also likely that the Military Industrial Complex understood several years back that the pressures of economic globalization, the fascist turn toward corporatization, and the loss of freedoms would not likely make many Americans happy. Americans have watched their economy dismantled and moved elsewhere, they have watched nearly all of their wealth given to the financial class, they have experienced unlimited wars for that elite class, and they have been subjected to the loss of personal freedoms.
The plan of Empire, Fascism, and Globalization only benefits the few at the expense of the many.Obviously, the military would become trained to take care of the unhappy, unfortunate that might take to the streets to fight back.The US Marine’s letter, whether real or not, serves as a warning that the military option will be readily used against American citizens..... There is clearly no such thing as Democracy in America. Elections will not produce any change when the choice is the same. Instead Americans have to consider work stoppages, sit downs, and other peaceful methods to help create an atmosphere of social and economic justice in the US. If the troops are called in to kill people, the blood will be on elite hands (their hands are bloody enough) and not on the hands of the American people....[/i]" Responses: to “US Marine: I will Fight American Civilians”
"Right now I’m actually writing a blog post of my own on this guy’s statements and the historical differences between now and 1861. But I think I should say that is is NOT impossible for right wing militants to win a civil war against the government. In a possible civil war the right wingers would have both advantages and disadvantages. But this Marine – or whoever he is – makes plenty of valid points. This is not a video game or a John Wayne movie after all....."
The Ghost 2010-03-27 14:43:24 REPLY --------------------- --------------------- "Who says you have to be a “right-wing” militant to oppose this bill, or to advocate for an overthrow of our Corporatist government? As the author of this article points out, the takeover of our government by Corporatists, globalists, and the financial industry is not a “right-wing” issue. It’s a populist issue and an American issue. And this opposition has much support from the so-called “left” as well.
Many think a revolution requires a sufficient number of people willing to bear arms to fight FOR a common goal–and who are seeking a common endpoint.
But such is NOT the case. All that’s necessary is enough people who are willing to take up arms AGAINST something, regardless of their views on a common endpoint.
In fact, few if any revolutions have ever shared a common endpoint goal. All they’ve shared is arms-bearing opposition to the current government–be it from the left, right, or middle (or from outer space, for that matter).
There is extreme anger from both ends of the political spectrum on this health care legislation–especially on the individual mandate.
This anger, coupled with the absolute sell-out of Americans on TARP (which was opposed by an overwhelming majority of the citizenry), provides fertile breeding ground for civil war.
It will not be the right vs. the left. It’ll be the rich elite Corporatists, financial bandits, and health insurance oligarchs--against all the rest of us.
And the “rest of us” will include progressives, populists, conservatives, socialists, and everything in between.
And this Marine will either be defending the masses, or the rich elite.""
unlawflcombatnt: 2010-03-27 18:07:32
|
|
|
Post by waltc on Mar 28, 2010 2:14:04 GMT -6
Now I 'd like to disperse a myth here - many of you think that US military would not fight civilians. I can't speak for all, but in my case - the moment you declare civil war, you're no longer civilians. The moment you attack the constitution, you're now enemies of that constitution. And I swore to defend and support and if necessary give my life for that Constitution and utilize every tool, technique, and weapon at my disposal to do so. And trust me, I'm not alone.[/i
A Constitution that's already been ripped to shreds and a country that's already gave away its sovereignty to foreign entities.
Then again professional soldiers and marines are not noted recruited for their knowledge of the Constitution nor respecting human rights. It's all abstract bullshit to them at best. Their job is to murder, maim and destroy any group that the government deems needing such attention.
And ours are very, very good at that and they are not our friends by any stretch. Their loyalty is to the military and fellow troops not the country or the people and you can bet your life on that.
That said, the murderous jarhead is dead on. Most Marines(even 'ex') would kill Americans on sight if ordered to as most are already deeply contemptuous of most civilians. Plus they already have a history of shooting Americans dead from the Bonus Marchers(WWI vets) to being used during Prohibition killing gangsters.
He's also a poster child of whats wrong with professional Armies in Democracies. They become a tool of the powerful and unaccountable as in the case of the Executive and Legislative branches. They can do things with a professional military that can never be done with a force of draftees like murder and oppress their own citizens.
As for the rest of the jarhead's post I can see why he withdrew it.
|
|
|
Post by jeffolie on Mar 28, 2010 17:05:31 GMT -6
I remember Kent State.
|
|
|
Post by fredorbob on Mar 29, 2010 8:43:17 GMT -6
We invented every form of strategy and tactics in warfare since the 18th century, I wouldn't be all gung-ho about it. A marine is vulnerable; the human body is frail and soft nomatter how much you work out. A marine has to sleep somewhere, a marine has to eat somewhere, a marine has to train somewhere, a marine has to piss and shit somewhere. They can't always be in a prone position with rifle ready you know.
In addition, every single war in the last 40 years has been asymmetrical, it really doesn't matter how 'professional' your army is.
|
|