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Post by xtra on Oct 20, 2008 22:59:30 GMT -6
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:55 AM Subject: Re: Gold runs out - BEWARE FAKE GOLD! Do be aware that there are FAKE gold bars and coins on the market with granulated tungsten cores. These cores are the same density as gold and the only way to tell the difference can be to cut the coin or bar in two. This from Yahoo Group coinforgeryebay: Hello CFe
Yesterday I was shown an interesting dated 2000 AD 1/10 ounce AGW US gold eagle here in my coin shop in Utah. The diameter was correct. The weight was correct. The thickness appeared to be correct (I did not measure it). All the details appeAred quite correct with one exception. The coin was struck slightly off center on each side. The dies were slightly smaller than they should have been, but looked very good in all details.
I did not test for gold content, but it looked like gold to me, at least on the surface and did not appear to be plate, maybe thick plate. The woman said she had four more, but thought maybe they had been stolen. She had no idea of their pedigree, or was not telling. The slightly under sized dies and being off centered should be a tip the coin was a counterfeit, however, I suspect it was good enough to pass coin shops now and then, and more likely yet to pass pawn shops. It would have been interesting to cut the coin. It really looked correct to me in thickness, so I am suspicious it might have had a compressed tungsten granule core.
No gold coins with compressed tungsten granule cores have been published that I am aware of, though there are rumors of such in Krugerands. Compressed tungsten granules are about the only way to get correct density to imitate gold without high cost. If certain interests in China are marketing fake gold coins now with compressed tungsten granule cores (which has the same density as gold), it will soon wreak havoc upon the gold coin and gold bullion markets.
If the dies had not been undersized, it could have passed me as good without deep analysis / lab work. I thought I could see very light indications the coin had some sort of core, under magnification, but not enough I was sure. Best
Alan Van Arsdale --------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Alan and Yahoo CFe,
We have just seen within the past several days on eBay a forged subsidiary silver US coin of Asian manufacture (a farily common US Bust Dime). This was, I believe, one of the first times we've seen
such a small creature. For the past year subsidiary small denomination Canadian Victorian and rare George V silver coins have been forged (including the easy to fake ICCS holders as well) all to the dismay of Canadian numismatists. I'm also seeing some fractional denomination old Korean coins currently being forged in Malaysia and dumped into US numismatic markets without suspicion. To me, this newly seen US item is evidence of a willingness of forgers to get into forging in small denomination coins those that they haven't been involved before. Such brazen outlook is a change in perception of just following where profit in the coin business lies.
Compressed tungsten granules or powder, held in solid form using a polymer type of binder in a matrix clad with gold on both surfaces and rolled to the correct thickness (with the correct average density
of gold coin or gold bullion coin) with an applied edge band - all similar to the Sheffield Plate way of making forgeries - would wreak havoc on bullion markets if such was skillfully done (tungsten has a very high melting point and most commercial furnaces/kilns are about 1000 degrees Celsius short!).
Compressing powdered metal with a matrix as binder is described by Dr. Ilya Prokopov as 'cold pressing' - per his terminology. In my opinion, diffusion and dissemination of this technology is just a
matter of time. The networks of organized crime and trafficking in forgeries, looted antiquities and artwork, contraband and money laundering are already in place for many decades.
Additionally, bullion items could have cores removed from edge drilling, milling into two pieces similar to magician's coins or sewn in half and reassembled upon having the interiors hollowed-out and replaced with the surrogate matrix.
Such debased coin or bullion item could be done profitably as the POG rises with fiat currency printing presses running amok to stave off recession.
A tungsten based matrix looks like a viable alternative to get the correct density of gold (for instance a .900 fine gold coin has a density of 17.18-17.20 gms/cc and pure tungsten with a density of
19.25 gms/cc, so deploying a matrix with a specific gravity of much less could be used to hold all into a rigid core). With an applied veneer of gold in the correct fineness and die struck, all would be appear fairly convincing.
Without being an alarmist, I think we're potentially looking at a major crisis over the next few years as gold demand likely will increase. Furthermore, at present, there is a worldwide shortage of tungsten, but a mine in Canada is expected to re-open due to the shortage and raising raw material prices and a new one in Viet Nam is expected to open next year. Perhaps to the dismay of western numismatists, Vietnamese counterfeiters may get a leg up on the competition. I would expect Asian counterfeiters to be one of the first to use this technology.
A willingness already exists to forge small denomination bullion items. 1/10 OZ US gold Eagles would be no exception and in my opinion is consistent with the profit level seen in other numismatically collectible items.
REgards, Paul.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Oct 21, 2008 3:21:25 GMT -6
This is kind of interesting. The density of gold is identical to that of tungsten. (Both are listed with a density of 19.3 on the periodic table.) This means it could be put into gold coins, with preservation of the normal density of a solid gold (only) coin.
Is tungsten really that much cheaper than gold?
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Post by graybeard on Oct 21, 2008 6:50:51 GMT -6
Eureka!
This has been going on since Archimedes was a voyeur. From wiki:
The Golden Crown The most widely known anecdote about Archimedes tells how he invented a method for determining the volume of an object with an irregular shape. According to Vitruvius, a new crown in the shape of a laurel wreath had been made for King Hiero II, and Archimedes was asked to determine whether it was of solid gold, or whether silver had been added by a dishonest goldsmith.[13] Archimedes had to solve the problem without damaging the crown, so he could not melt it down into a regularly shaped body in order to calculate its density. While taking a bath, he noticed that the level of the water in the tub rose as he got in, and realized that this effect could be used to determine the volume of the crown.
For practical purposes water is incompressible,[14] so the submerged crown would displace an amount of water equal to its own volume. By dividing the weight of the crown by the volume of water displaced, the density of the crown could be obtained. The density of the crown would be lower than that of gold if cheaper and less dense metals had been added. Archimedes then took to the streets naked, so excited by his discovery that he had forgotten to dress, crying "Eureka!" (Greek: "åὕñçêá!," meaning "I have found it!")[15] --------
And all this time I thought only uranium was more dense than gold. I bet depleted uranium has been used.
The only test I can think of right now would use a milli-ohmeter to test the electrical conductivity of the gold in question. Neither tungsten nor uranium will conduct current as good as gold.
GB
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Post by jeffolie on Oct 21, 2008 10:28:00 GMT -6
I have been telling my family for decades that 'you are lucky if you get what you paid for'.
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Post by xtra on Oct 23, 2008 12:56:56 GMT -6
This is kind of interesting. The density of gold is identical to that of tungsten. (Both are listed with a density of 19.3 on the periodic table.) This means it could be put into gold coins, with preservation of the normal density of a solid gold (only) coin. Is tungsten really that much cheaper than gold? I guess it kind of depends....lol I had a friend show me his wedding ring made of tungsten, he said he paid over 600 bucks for it at a jewelry store, but since he was divorced sold it to me for about 70. My son said the same thing that he saw these same very nice rings for 500-1000. I went on E-bay and saw brand new tungsten rings that looked just as nice for 60-120 bucks, if these were made of gold, you can bet they would be well over a grand..... crooks will do anything for a buck. I think it would be the gem quality, color and brillance that would give it away.
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Post by graybeard on Nov 30, 2008 10:05:09 GMT -6
I bet the consumption of tungsten has dropped a lot as CFL light bulbs take over.
This makes me hesitant about investing more in gold and silver. If forgeries reached panic proportions, the price of gold would drop like a rock.
The dollar is set to crash. Where are the safe investments? Maybe circulated US silver coins?
GB
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Post by graybeard on Mar 5, 2009 19:00:29 GMT -6
I have come up with what I'm pretty sure is a good, nondestructive method to test gold and silver for integrity. It will take a significant investment in time and money, however. Right now I'm pondering the potential of providing a fee-based testing service, possibly based in a coin shop.
Would clients want to know if the gold they already have is genuine, or would testing be more popular upon purchase? Would I be in danger from those who want forgeries kept quiet?
GB
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Post by agito on Mar 5, 2009 19:31:37 GMT -6
your best bet gray- would be to find a "casing" for it. ... .. can't research this right now- but basically- there are comic and card rating agencies that will evaluate the condition of the card or comic (if it's in "mint" or "good" or "whatever" condition) and then they seal the article in a plastic enclosure with a label that will break if it's opened. A certificate of genuine appraisal is issued and the article in question becomes more easily sellable because the buyers put their faith in the rating company.
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Post by xtra on Mar 5, 2009 19:48:30 GMT -6
This is kind of interesting. The density of gold is identical to that of tungsten. (Both are listed with a density of 19.3 on the periodic table.) This means it could be put into gold coins, with preservation of the normal density of a solid gold (only) coin. what about the specific gravity? you can build a home set up for less than 10 bucks to test that.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 5, 2009 20:24:57 GMT -6
Good thought, Agito. I'll consider it.
Specific gravity testing has been around since Archimedes was a streaker. Tungsten, the fake filler of choice, has the same specific gravity as gold.
GB
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Post by xtra on Mar 6, 2009 23:10:08 GMT -6
The dollar is set to crash. Where are the safe investments? Maybe circulated US silver coins? GB i guess just don't put all your eggs in 1 basket. buy bars, rare coins, bullion, junk silver and graded high quality coins another idea is buy your silver and gold from a reputable coin dealer, they dont want the reputation of selling fakes. youll pay more than ebay, but if it helps you sleep better...
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Post by graybeard on Mar 7, 2009 0:33:14 GMT -6
How do reputable coin dealers detect professionally forged Kruggerands with tungsten cores?
I made a significant dollar investment today in a method to detect tungsten cores in gold and fake silver. We shall see.
GB
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Post by xtra on Mar 8, 2009 4:08:49 GMT -6
How do reputable coin dealers detect professionally forged Kruggerands with tungsten cores? they may not detect them, but they wont let you hold the crap....they will give you your money back or exchange.... just call them and ask. reputation is king to these guys....err most of them. i dont think this problem is all the big...just yet anyway.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Mar 8, 2009 13:52:22 GMT -6
How do reputable coin dealers detect professionally forged Kruggerands with tungsten cores? I made a significant dollar investment today in a method to detect tungsten cores in gold and fake silver. We shall see. GB Graybeard, I assume you're going to tell us about it if it works, aren't you?
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Post by graybeard on Mar 8, 2009 15:02:21 GMT -6
It'll be announced here first.
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Post by judes on Mar 9, 2009 21:40:49 GMT -6
Don't keep us in suspense too long. Sounds interesting.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 9, 2009 22:24:11 GMT -6
For life insurance, I have deposited stuff safely, so it won't do any good for me to be disappeared, or otherwise silenced. Am I being melodramatic?
Give me a week or so..
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Post by nomad943 on Mar 12, 2009 9:19:54 GMT -6
Must be the times. My morning newspaper is awash with full page ads featuring the latest investment opportunity; "GOLDEN" coins ...
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Mar 12, 2009 14:29:47 GMT -6
For life insurance, I have deposited stuff safely, so it won't do any good for me to be disappeared, or otherwise silenced. Am I being melodramatic? Give me a week or so.. Graybeard, I just hope you're exercising your 2nd Amendment rights to the fullest. I completely missed this in your previous post, GB. Are you sure that tungsten conducts less well than gold? Tungsten is used in MIG and TIG welding as the electrode. It's used because it does conduct electricity, but doesn't melt at temperatures under 2,000 °F., like iron and steel do. This makes me think that there may be some way to test, based on thermal conductivity. Maybe you could heat up the coins to a specific, non-melting temperature, drop them in water, and see how much they change the temperature of water. I don't know if this would work, but it does seem like there'd be a difference in thermal conductivity in 2 compounds that have such a radically different melting point. I'd also bet that you could find a college chemistry professor who could come up with an idea as well. I think all of mine have retired, but maybe some of the younger members still have college chemistry/physics professors they can still dig up.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 12, 2009 16:04:16 GMT -6
Hmm, yes, a difference in thermal conductivity should reveal the content. Hadn't thought of that.
Tungsten is not near as good a conductor as gold. Its resistive properties are the basis of incandescent light bulbs. The trick is how to make the measurements.
I haven't heard of any dealer testing the content what it buys and sells. Has anybody?
GB
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Post by xtra on Mar 13, 2009 2:42:50 GMT -6
i hate to break your bubbles...but
I know lots of people that have and deal in gold and they have never been taken....try the stock market lol
just because someone on internet land got taken, dont make it so.
I know gold when I see it.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 13, 2009 8:03:32 GMT -6
Uh, you're the one who started this thread, Xtra. How do you test your gold, like they used to do in the Westerns, bite it?
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Post by xtra on Mar 13, 2009 19:51:29 GMT -6
Yeah I did post it, but that don't mean I buy it....
I wanted to see where this was going without putting any of my thoughts to it one way or the other.
I have talked to lots of coin dealers and shops who have 70+ years in selling coins and they have never run across any "fake gold coins" yes, some are drilled or scraped for their gold, but they have never heard of an all out effort to counterfeit gold coins, don't mean it hasn't happened, I just don't think its that huge of a problem.
Next time your in a coin shop just ask around, start up the conversation, coin junkies love to talk shop.
To tell you the truth I kind of think this is just put out there to scare people so they wont buy gold....the bankers and elites worst enemies are an informed public who own gold and don't trust the Federal Reserve system.
now silver, thats a different story, Ive boughten fake silver coins off ebay and they stated they were fake, then I took them down to the coin dealer so everyone could have a good laugh.
If anyone out here has been taken by buying a fake gold coin, by all means share the story.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 13, 2009 20:37:31 GMT -6
What denominations of fake silver are out there?
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Post by xtra on Mar 14, 2009 16:15:32 GMT -6
I bought about 5 fake trade dollars off of ebay. There over 100 years old, the US used it to trade with China and that area.
maybe all see if I can download a pic.
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Post by graybeard on Mar 14, 2009 18:15:30 GMT -6
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