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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Jan 31, 2007 2:29:05 GMT -6
Below are excerpts from an article, Killing Corporate Welfare, describing the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, which is basically a government agency that provides Corporate Welfare to American companies that want to move their factories out of the United States and into a foreign country with cheaper labor. Without the assistance of OPIC, it would be much harder for American Corporations to outsource jobs, and replace American workers with lower-waged foreign workers. The article was written by John F. McManus in 1997. Killing Corporate Welfare " Begun in 1971, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) is a government agency formed to provide project financing, investment insurance, and other services for American businesses so that they can operate risk-free in developing nations where investment environments may be perilous.
The very name of this agency cleverly misleads. OPIC is not "private," but government; it is not a "corporation" in the real sense, but a non-taxpaying federal bureaucracy feeding at the public trough; and its greatest beneficiaries aren't "overseas," but right here in corporate America. It ought to be renamed the Government Agency for Subsidizing Big Annual Givers (GASBAG) inasmuch as the corporations receiving OPIC subsidies are among the largest donors to federal re-election campaigns.
Last September (1997), Representative John Kasich (R-OH), a leader of the move to abolish OPIC, listed some of the projects that received OPIC funding: "We developed a soft drink bottling company in Poland and in Ghana, a travel agency in Armenia. We have magazine publishing in Russia, a lumber mill in Lithuania, a shrimp farm in Ecuador, pension management in Colombia, a hotel in Ukraine, and 16 restaurants in Argentina."...
Representative Rob Andrews (D-NJ)...pointed to the impact on American jobs from OPIC's use of taxpayers' money to build foreign manufacturing bases. OPIC's proponents claim its activity stimulates exports and Andrews agrees, but Andrews insists that jobs are the major exports -- out of the United States....
Eleanor Holmes Norton, non-voting House delegate from Washington, DC, pointed out that "OPIC pays no taxes, pays no dividends, and two-thirds of its income comes from Treasury securities"....
Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-IL) correctly noted that OPIC's corporate recipients earn a private profit while any default involving OPIC-insured activity becomes a public obligation: "A private profit and a public loss -- that's socialism for the rich."
OPIC frees large corporations to invest -- at no risk to themselves -- in countries carrying D-minus or worse credit ratings.... Representative Ed Royce (R-CA) [stated] that OPIC operates exactly like the federal agency that stood behind the savings and loan industry in that they both "sold the full faith and credit of the U.S. government." He reminded colleagues that no one worried about having to make good on huge savings and loan losses. A failed OPIC, Royce stated, would cost taxpayers about $25 billion....
The bottom line is that OPIC is a federal welfare program enabling huge U.S. corporations to pursue projects in foreign countries that they wouldn't dare touch if they were forced to use their own money. ...."
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Post by blueneck on Jan 31, 2007 5:20:27 GMT -6
It is just unfathomable that our own government is actively gutting our manufacturing base and therefore our national and economic security.
This is tantamount to treason
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Post by LibSlayer on Jan 31, 2007 8:05:35 GMT -6
It is just unfathomable that our own government is actively gutting our manufacturing base and therefore our national and economic security. This is tantamount to treason Our own government doesn't have anything to do with it, the Constitution doesn't give the authority to do anything about it. And getting rid of our manufacturing base only makes the US stronger, it is old world.
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Post by blueneck on Jan 31, 2007 18:23:30 GMT -6
This statement just proves how naive and misinformed you really are
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Feb 1, 2007 2:43:19 GMT -6
And getting rid of our manufacturing base only makes the US stronger, it is old world. You've made comments like this before. Are you serious? Getting rid of our manufacturing base makes us stronger? So if we're dependent on the manufacturing production of other countries for all of our goods, that "makes us stronger"?
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 8:18:00 GMT -6
This statement just proves how naive and misinformed you really are It proves just how informed I am, the US is moving into the Information Age and trying to hold us back in the Industrial Age is detrimental to the welfare of the country.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 8:19:24 GMT -6
And getting rid of our manufacturing base only makes the US stronger, it is old world. You've made comments like this before. Are you serious? Getting rid of our manufacturing base makes us stronger? So if we're dependent on the manufacturing production of other countries for all of our goods, that "makes us stronger"? Yes, absolutely, the US is moving into the Information Age, trying to stay in the Industrial Age is detrimental to the welfare of the country.
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Post by unlawflcombatnt on Feb 1, 2007 16:42:53 GMT -6
You've made comments like this before. Are you serious? Getting rid of our manufacturing base makes us stronger? So if we're dependent on the manufacturing production of other countries for all of our goods, that "makes us stronger"? Yes, absolutely, the US is moving into the Information Age, trying to stay in the Industrial Age is detrimental to the welfare of the country. This seems like exactly the same kind of thinking that led up to the tech crash, the crash of NASDAQ, and the stock market crash in 2001. The "information" age (and the "new" economy) was overplayed then, and those who invested in it got burned badly. This is the mentality that created the tech bubble, and led to its ultimate collapse. The "old" rules did apply after all. And those who denied them found this out the hard way. The "new" economy was a fantasy then, and it's still a fantasy today. Can anyone say " irrational exuberance"?
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Post by blueneck on Feb 1, 2007 17:00:54 GMT -6
Nothing drives innovation, R&D and technology with greater gusto than manufacturing.
Notice that the fastest growing economies such as China and India are doing it with manufacturing.
I totally agree with you UC, that this whole "tech" thing is vastly overated. And without a manufacturing base, there is little to apply the technology to, or produce it for the consumer.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 17:09:57 GMT -6
"This seems like exactly the same kind of thinking that led up to the tech crash, the crash of NASDAQ, and the stock market crash in 2001. The "information" age (and the "new" economy) was overplayed then, and those who invested in it got burned badly.
This is the mentality that created the tech bubble, and led to its ultimate collapse. The "old" rules did apply after all. And those who denied them found this out the hard way.
The "new" economy was a fantasy then, and it's still a fantasy today.
Can anyone say "irrational exuberance"? "
Not new economy new revolutions.
Modern humans have been through 2 revolutions and are starting to go through the third.
Agricultural Revolution – humans went from hunter/gatherers to the fields and domesticated animals. They did this with muscle power, human and animal. Humans saw a tremendous increase in living standards.
Industrial Revolution – humans went from the farms to the factories where we still used muscle power, human and machine. Humans saw a tremendous increase in living standards.
We are just starting the third revolution, the Information Revolution (not the Internet Revolution). Humans are going from the factory floors to the factory offices. This time we aren’t using muscle power of any kind, we are using brain power, our greatest asset, the one that can take us to unknown heights.
Just about every office worker in the US is an information worker, all but one employee at the company where I work is an information worker.
For a society to create information workers it must have a tremendous over abundance of resources, developing nations don’t have that, and won’t until they have gained all the benefits from fully entering the Industrial Revolution as China is starting to do.
The US is leading the rest of the world into the Information Age. Trying to hold onto the remnants of the Industrial Age only holds the US back.
I would much rather Americans sit at computers and use their minds to work than work on an assembly line, skilled or unskilled. We haven’t even begun to tap the potential of the computer and what it can do for us. The company I work at uses 70’s technology to run its core processes. If we adopted modern systems we could run the company on half the number of employees we have, and could greatly reduce the cost of our products allowing a great many more to afford them.
And with new technology coming on line in the next few years, WiMax, 80 core CPU’s,… what we are going to see in the next 5 to 10 years will make the 90’s look like the 1890’s.
This change, going from the Industrial Age to the Information Age is going to cause great turmoil, a great many are going to lose out, just as happened when we went from the agricultural to the industrial, but ultimately our society will benefit as great or even greater than we did from the industrial revolution.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 17:14:30 GMT -6
Nothing drives innovation, R&D and technology with greater gusto than manufacturing. Not true, it is capital investiment that drives innovation and R&D.
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Post by judes on Feb 1, 2007 17:28:21 GMT -6
Office workers??? You are delusional. Office workers are being outsourced just as fast as manufacturing workers. In my current manufacturing engineering position we are in the process of moving all our capital equipment to overseas cheap labor markets. Yes that includes vast amounts of high tech equipment, circuit board assembly machines, etc. But long before the machines actually moved out, the programming of the circuit boards, the writing of the software all the "information age stuff" had already been outsourced to India, it was much easier and cheaper to outsource the office jobs. For many years calls for computer/software support were directed to Mexico or India. All expense reports have been processed in Mexico for years, and guess what, if I had a question regarding my benefits or pension (before it they were eliminated) I was connected to a person in India. There are very few office jobs that can't be outsourced.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 17:30:16 GMT -6
Office workers??? You are delusional. Office workers are being outsourced just as fast as manufacturing workers. . No, information workers, and we are not outsourcing them.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 17:31:49 GMT -6
Yes that includes vast amounts of high tech equipment, circuit board assembly machines, etc. But long before the machines actually moved out, the programming of the circuit boards, the writing of the software all the "information age stuff" had already been outsourced to India, it was much easier and cheaper to outsource the office jobs. For many years calls for computer/software support were directed to Mexico or India. All expense reports have been processed in Mexico for years, and guess what, if I had a question regarding my benefits or pension (before it they were eliminated) I was connected to a person in India. There are very few office jobs that can't be outsourced. You do understand that all those jobs you listed are labor, they are not information workers.
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Post by judes on Feb 1, 2007 17:52:16 GMT -6
Then please enlighten me as to what the information workers are, or what they will be doing that will give the vast majority of Americans jobs when the office and manufacturing jobs are gone.
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Post by blueneck on Feb 1, 2007 18:20:56 GMT -6
IT workers are being outsourced to places like India and Pakistan. So are many white collar, service and medical jobs.
It takes capital for R&D, but it needs something to drive it, produce it, and apply it too. Without manufacturing it goes nowhere.
You are completely living in a fantasy world if you think an economy can continue to grow without a manufacturing base. And how does one continue to be the "arsenal of democracy" without a manufacturing base, are we going to buy our weapons from China like many of our enemies do? How are you liberal-neocons going to continue being the world's policeman and your nation building misadventures with no ability to produce the high tech weaponry?
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 18:23:07 GMT -6
Then please enlighten me as to what the information workers are, or what they will be doing that will give the vast majority of Americans jobs when the office and manufacturing jobs are gone. Accounting, finance, legal, medical, marketing, sales, insurance adjustor, insurance raters, insurance underwriters, writing, media, tax, software design, systems analysis, system architects, management, R&D, mathmaticians, architects, database designers, BI analysts, ....
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 18:26:38 GMT -6
IT workers are being outsourced to places like India and Pakistan. So are many white collar, service and medical jobs. It takes capital for R&D, but it needs something to drive it, produce it, and apply it too. Without manufacturing it goes nowhere.? Without capital to invest in R&D there aren't any new products TO manufacture. You are completely living in a fantasy world if you think an economy can continue to grow without a manufacturing base. quote] And yet that is exactly what the US IS doing and was doing during the 90's. The US economy has steadily been growing yet the manufacturing base has steadily been declining, with what about 15% of workers employed in manufacturing with something like 60% information workers.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 18:42:31 GMT -6
without a manufacturing base, are we going to buy our weapons from China like many of our enemies do? From any of a dozen or more countries that are chomping at the bit to steal US business away from China.
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Post by judes on Feb 1, 2007 18:53:08 GMT -6
Then please enlighten me as to what the information workers are, or what they will be doing that will give the vast majority of Americans jobs when the office and manufacturing jobs are gone. Accounting, finance, legal, medical, marketing, sales, insurance adjustor, insurance raters, insurance underwriters, writing, media, tax, software design, systems analysis, system architects, management, R&D, mathmaticians, architects, database designers, BI analysts, .... HAHAHA, I think every office job I listed as having already been outsourced is included in your list. Software design, uh didn't I say the software designers for our high tech products have already gone to India. Accounting and finance many of those functions gone, tax and insurance many gone, database designers went to Mexico long time ago. Systems analysts are only useful if there are systems in the US to analyze. Marketing and sales much gone rest getting ready to go, just about everything you listed is on a fast track to the cheapest labor market. Even surgeries are being done abroad, xrays are sent abroad to get analyzed, you are a fool. System architects, and engineers (I am one) are quickly being transferred to low cost technology centers. R&D is almost entirely tied to manufacturing and is moving with the manufacturing. Me and several fellow engineers are training our low cost engineering replacements in one of our newly developed Mexican technology centers right now. Our company has also just spent billions on new technology centers in China and India as well. Math, I love math. Let's see what can one do with a math degree in the US that might result in stable employment?? I know teach Math. Wonderful. Manufacturing is the birth place of all new technologies and innovations. We are nothing without manufacturing. And when the tables are turned and all those countries with the goods cut us off because of our bad behaviour, just like we impose sanctions on our foes now, what ever will we do then? We will be at the mercy of those with the goods, manufacturing is power, without it we are doomed.
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Post by blueneck on Feb 1, 2007 19:14:38 GMT -6
Great post Judes right on the money.
No less a great patriot Alexander Hamilton once said that the economic health and security of a nation is directly tied to the health of its manufacturing base. this is more true today than it was 200 years ago when he said it.
Other tech jobs rapidly being outsourced are CAD draftsman and design engineers to add to the list.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 19:28:39 GMT -6
"HAHAHA, I think every office job I listed as having already been outsourced is included in your list. Software design, uh didn't I say the software designers for our high tech products have already gone to India. Accounting and finance many of those functions gone, tax and insurance many gone, database designers went to Mexico long time ago. "
And yet there is a shortage of those skills in the US market place right now. Outsourcing soared in the 90's and has leveled off for the past 5 or 6 years and projects are that only about 3.5 million will be outsourced by 2015, that is an insignificant amount.
AS for accounting - it is one of the most indemand right now, so much for your claims of it being oursourced.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 19:36:40 GMT -6
"Math, I love math. Let's see what can one do with a math degree in the US that might result in stable employment?? I know teach Math. Wonderful. Manufacturing is the birth place of all new technologies and innovations. We are nothing without manufacturing. And when the tables are turned and all those countries with the goods cut us off because of our bad behaviour, just like we impose sanctions on our foes now, what ever will we do then? We will be at the mercy of those with the goods, manufacturing is power, without it we are doomed"
I personally know somebody who has a Master in Math from Dartmouth and is making a very good income.
"Manufacturing is the birth place of all new technologies and innovations"
Wrong, I know of a company that started with nothing but an idea, ZERO manufacturing, only capital investment. 100's of thousands of companies start and have nothing to do with manufacrtuing, they just start with an idea and capital investment.
"We are nothing without manufacturing. "
And yet as our manufacturing base has declined, our economy has continued to grow.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 19:46:50 GMT -6
" And when the tables are turned and all those countries with the goods cut us off because of our bad behaviour, just like we impose sanctions on our foes now, what ever will we do then? We will be at the mercy of those with the goods, manufacturing is power, without it we are doomed.[/quote]
They would only cut their only throat, they need us, we don't need them, there is always another country with a large supply of labor that would kill for the US market.
In on paragraph you say you teach math, then you say you are an engineer training foreign workers to take your place. Which is it.
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Post by judes on Feb 1, 2007 20:03:16 GMT -6
Are you seriously trying to say accounting jobs haven't been or aren't being outsourced? money.cnn.com/2003/12/30/pf/offshorejob/www.outsourcing.org/Directory/Accounting/Accountants/I personally know somebody who has a Master in Math from Dartmouth and is making a very good income. That's wonderful, so tell me what is he doing? Is it something that can't be done in a cheaper foreign labor market? Wrong, I know of a company that started with nothing but an idea, ZERO manufacturing, only capital investment. 100's of thousands of companies start and have nothing to do with manufacrtuing, they just start with an idea and capital investment. Please do tell what this one company you know of is. And then the 100's of thousands that have nothing to do with manufacturing? All companies start with an idea, but almost all the employees necessary for bringing those ideas to fruition can be found elsewhere for less. And guess what, that usually means your precious capital investments are going over seas as well. And yet as our manufacturing base has declined, our economy has continued to grow. And our dependence on others is increasing and our grovelling at the feet of our enemies is just beginning.
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Post by judes on Feb 1, 2007 20:11:41 GMT -6
They would only cut their only throat, they need us, we don't need them, there is always another country with a large supply of labor that would kill for the US market. When the US market is rendered insignificant due to all the good paying jobs vacating we will not be relevant in any bidding wars. In on paragraph you say you teach math, then you say you are an engineer training foreign workers to take your place. Which is it. You might want to read what I wrote again. I never said I taught math. I asked what one could do with a math degree that wasn't subject to outsourcing, since you included it in your list of information workers.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 20:54:17 GMT -6
"When the US market is rendered insignificant due to all the good paying jobs vacating we will not be relevant in any bidding wars."
The good paying jobs aren't vacating, wages are continuing to rise at almost the identical rate they did during the 90's and we are at record employment, just as happened in the 90's when outsourcing skyrocketed.
"You might want to read what I wrote again. I never said I taught math. I asked what one could do with a math degree that wasn't subject to outsourcing, since you included it in your list of information workers."
You said "I know teach Math". Since this sentence doesn't make sense, I assumed the "k" was a typo.
A for us being nothing without manufacturing, just exactly what maunfacturing is Microsoft involved in? Oracle? Yahoo? Google? Amazon? the 1000's of website design companies? the 100's of thousands of ecommerce websites? Computer Associates? Symantec? Adobe? SAP? Intuit? Autodesk? Red Hat? Nero? Ulead? Webroot? Bloomberg? Dice? Monster? CNET? eWeek?
What manufacturing? What manufacturing R&D did all these ideas come from?
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 20:58:34 GMT -6
Are you seriously trying to say accounting jobs haven't been or aren't being outsourced? money.cnn.com/2003/12/30/pf/offshorejob/www.outsourcing.org/Directory/Accounting/Accountants/You haven't presented any proof it is. " Please do tell what this one company you know of is. And then the 100's of thousands that have nothing to do with manufacturing? " www.xante.comBut here is a list: What maunfacturing is Microsoft involved in? Oracle? Yahoo? Google? Amazon? the 1000's of website design companies? the 100's of thousands of ecommerce websites? Computer Associates? Symantec? Adobe? SAP? Intuit? Autodesk? Red Hat? Nero? Ulead? Webroot? Bloomberg? Dice? Monster? CNET? eWeek?
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 21:01:26 GMT -6
"And our dependence on others is increasing and our grovelling at the feet of our enemies is just beginning. "
We aren't dependent on them, they are dependent on us, we can always find another labor source, they can't find another market.
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Post by LibSlayer on Feb 1, 2007 21:14:56 GMT -6
Without manufacturing it goes nowhere. So I guess these companies are tiny and not going anywhere because they aren't involved in manufacturing? Microsoft ? Oracle? Yahoo? Google? Amazon? the 1000's of website design companies? the 100's of thousands of ecommerce websites? Computer Associates? Symantec? Adobe? SAP? Intuit? Autodesk? Red Hat? Nero? Ulead? Webroot? Bloomberg? Dice? Monster? CNET? eWeek?
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