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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 21:03:44 GMT -6
So that 240 Watt per 1.6 square meters solar panel at $879.00 (wiring, installation and inverter not included) produces 240 watts from 10 am to 4 pm The inverter efficiency is www.ece.gatech.edu/research/UCEP/papers/inv_impact.pdf around 90% so you lose 10% there your sending 90% of 240 watts to batteries that makes 216 watts. And those lead acid batteries are at 60% efficiency, or 40% loss. So 60% of 216 is 130 Watts. Or you can gain 15% in efficiency with Lithium ion batteries which don't last as long as lead acid batteries and are far more expensive, in which case the gains made in not installing so many expensive solar panels are lost. So it doesn't really matter if you use lithium ion or lead acid batteries, you're pretty much screwed either way. So if you want to charge batteries to be able to run a 900 watt medium sized wall AC unit for 3 hours during the non daylight hours, you'd need a whole buttload of batteries (probably around 20 car batteries) and and 6.67 meters of solar panels just to recharge those batteries. That's allot of heavy metal.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 20:45:01 GMT -6
Uh, Fred, that link you posted that says PV cells are made using mercury and lead also says "The researchers found that producing electricity from solar cells reduces air pollutants by about 90 percent in comparison to using conventional fossil fuel technologies." And the TVA does build/manage more than hydroelectric dams. It also runs supposedly "clean coal" power plants. There was a big sludge spill from one of their "clean coal" plants in 2008. The Kingston plant, at the time the largest coal power plant in the world, spilled a billion gallons of sequestered toxic wet coal ash (the sequestering is why they call it "clean coal") into the river. So far a billion dollars has been marked to be flushed down the drain to clean that up. How many solar disasters have you heard of? If you discredit the Department of Energy as a credible source of facts then I really don't know what to say. What authority do you count as credible? And how is this solar PV cost curve in any way flattening out? www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/blog/Image/naam-solar-moore_s-law-2.jpgIf the government pisses enough money down the toilet on "green energy" to where "green energy" is just as big as normal energy, then you can bet there would be just as big toxic waste cleanups as normal energy gets.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 20:36:14 GMT -6
Again, what is your source for battery charge/discharge efficiency you quoted, FOB? GB Wow, my wild random guess was closer to the mark then I thought. www.futurepundit.com/archives/006554.htmlI guessed 25%, how about the real number of 26% for Lithium-Ion batteries on the Tesla Roadster. I must have read something like 10 years ago about battery efficiency and remembered 1/4th. Now for regular lead acid batteries which are probably more inefficient. I'd guess they take 33% more energy to charge then you can get out of them....hmmmm let me look that up. unlawflcombatnt.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=oil&thread=9257&page=1
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 20:32:19 GMT -6
Are these Ron Paul numbers where paying interest on the national debt, and other unrelated things, is included to the war cost?
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 20:28:54 GMT -6
These neocons got it all backwards.
If the voter saw their taxes increase with every spending increase then they would be hesitant to vote for the socialist politicians who increase spending.
But as it is now, voters don't see tax increases with all the spending increases so they vote for the socialists who increase spending. The voter hears things like, "Our children will be paying for..." and the voter is like, "cool, then let the children and grandchildren pay for it, the little fucking rugrats, haha."
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 20:26:38 GMT -6
Here's where me and Pat Buchanan part ways. buchanan.org/blog/an-establishment-in-panic-4796He says, "Don't raise taxes in the face of deficits," which makes no logical sense cause the a deficit is just another tax to-be-payed-in-the-future. The "Starve The Beast Theory" started being applied under Raygun (refusing to raise taxes, expecting the socialist-left to not spend) has proven to be a gigantic failure. Any rational person would see this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 8:26:29 GMT -6
First, I don't think Moore's Law applies to solar. A different, less dramatic law of exponential improvements applies to solar. But it is exponential, and it does follow a log curve. Actually the opposite is happening, it's an inverse log curve, a very flat inverse log curve. Efficiency is flattening out and tapering off (hitting the theoretical limits). 4.1 million people live in the Phoenix area. 1 out of 1,000 people lost power for a few hours, are you going to bankrupt the whole city so 1 out of 1,000 don't lose power for a few hours? The DOE is damaged goods, full of Green liberals, it doesn't matter what they say. So what, a small percentage loss doesn't make up for the huge cost.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 8, 2011 7:56:12 GMT -6
What is your source for battery charge/discharge efficiency you quoted, FOB? Paint the ground white? Yeh, sure. Where you gonna' get the paint to cover just the 3.5 Million square miles of CONUS? Part of the GW problem is the ice melting off the permafrost and revealing vegetation that absorbs more heat. It would be better to plant bamboo and kudzu and other fast growing greenery to absorb more CO2. We should also stop subsidizing things like cotton that take water from the aquifers and give us nothing in return. GB First of all there is no global warming, second, it would be cheaper to paint 3.5 million square miles white than to do what these eco-terrorists are suggesting.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 20:22:56 GMT -6
A perfect reflector of visible light is a mirror (white colors are close) A perfect absorber of visible light is black color Metals reflect infrared Pretty much anything absorbs infrared (colors don't matter) That graph may look like there is more infrared radiation than visible light but it's not true. Higher wavelength photons have more energy than lower wavelength photons, so visible light is pretty much high up there on the totem pole on solar irradiance importance which is why the Global Warmists are so comical. If Global Warming were to truly be a serious threat all we would have to do is paint the ground white. If an ice age were to truly be a serious threat, fly a few 747's over Antartica with a bunch of black coal dust and paint the ground black.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 19:57:00 GMT -6
You make some good points fredorbob, and people who use or advocate solar are aware of (or should be aware of) these issues. We are in agreement on that. The world isn't ready yet to dump utility power totally and replace it with solar. It must be done gradually, with the help of residential subsidies and a continued reliance on grid power. There is also the option of biodiesel powered generators and filtered waste veggie oil. And batteries can always help, 25% energy loss or not. But if your utility power goes out in the middle of the day at 118F, which did happen in your town, and you have solar on your roof and a battery bank, you have at least some air conditioning available. At worst, it's one room with a small room-type AC. But what options do you have when you rely on grid power and no solar, and you're one of the 4000 houses whose power went out? I'm not sure how the latter option is somehow better. Also in 118F temperatures who would run the AC, the computer and the microwave? Wouldn't your primary concern be using the AC to avoid heat stroke? I thought that electric companies advise residents to use fewer appliances in situations like that. Wouldn't the utility power grid suffer a huge amount of strain when it's 118F and thousands of air conditioners are on while legions of microwaves and 700W PSU computers are running at the same time? I thought this was known to stress and even overwhelm power grids, especially if you are a customer of low grade companies like Pepco (Potomac Electric), which is infamous for its power outages. I worked at a data center until recently and I oversaw voluntarily shutdowns during the summer heat waves when it got over 110 (2005, IIRC). We had tons of advisories going around then, and that wasn't even during the rolling blackout Enron energy scam years. Voluntary shutdowns huh, in California too. Gee I wonder if the Green agenda had something to do with it. Instead of spending a hundred thousand dollars to a million dollars per resident for what-if-the-power-goes-out scenario, turning every resident into their own power generating station, it would be better to not let rolling blackouts happen in the first place. We, the non-Californian's-of-America don't have rolling blackouts. Like they'd know anything about it. Oh god. It's a matter of physics. It's really quite simple, no need to get all technical. Look at a satellite photo of an area, a darker color will absorb more thermal radiation, a lighter color will reflect more. Any type of solar will absorb 100% of thermal radiation and not reflect it back into space or atmosphere, and anyone pro-solar Green worth their salt knows that the amount of thermal radiation hitting every square meter of earth is significant. Moore's law includes the theoretical limit, just like the internal combustion engine has a theoretical limit. Moore's law states that processing power doubles every 2 years, solar panels output have not doubled every 2 years, they haven't even doubled in 20 years.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 9:54:38 GMT -6
;D
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 5:58:56 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 2:49:59 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 2:46:23 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 2:16:07 GMT -6
Watch what the unions do, if they roll over like a I think they will and support Obamamessiah - stick a fork in American trucking. My predictions the unions will fold given their lockstep support of Democrats since NAFTA and PNTR with China. Like lemmings they just can't themselves. They will roll over.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 2:12:56 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 2:10:02 GMT -6
Those tires are expensive too, so slashing tires would be effective.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 0:18:23 GMT -6
Batteries.
When I drove truck (6 car batteries in a battery pack), I could run my laptop for about 3 hours off an inverter (about 300 watt inverter) before getting a brownout and have to start engine to recharge batteries. So lets see, hmmm, if I wanted to run a 900 watt medium sized AC unit, I'd have to triple the number of batteries to 18 car batteries and be limited to running my AC, and only my AC, for 3 hours.
There is lots of energy loss in charging a battery, probably by like 25%. So I'd need about 1,200 watts of solar panel, about 9 extra square meters of solar panels just to recharge 18 car batteries to only be able to run medium wall sized AC for 3 hours when it's dark, and only the AC.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 7, 2011 0:00:40 GMT -6
The 240 Watt per 1.6 square meters solar panel. Price $1,440.00 BUT WAIT! If you act now you will get a reduced price of $879.00 (wiring, inverter not included) 240 Watts. And that's in ideal conditions pointing directly at the sun. So in ideal conditions. 3500 watts Central Air Conditioner (2.5 tons) 14.6 (23 square meters of solar panel) 1440 watts Window unit AC, huge 6 (9.6 square meters of solar panel) 900 watts Window unit AC, medium 3.75 ......... 500 watts Tiny-ass window unit AC 2.1 .......... *opens up back of computer* 700 watt power supply on computer. I'd need 3 of those 1.6 square meter solar panels running at high noon to run this computer, and probably 4-5-6 of those 1.6 meter solar panels when it isn't high noon, unless I got those solar panels on a big gimble that turns with the sun. So how many of those solar panels would I need if I wanted to run the AC, computer, and a microwave simultaneously without browning out?
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 14:55:59 GMT -6
You know what would happen if 1 million Phoenix residents suddenly installed 10 or so meters of photovoltaics on each rooftop; dark, almost black, photovoltaics on their rooftops instead of light colored shingles? It would create an urban heat island of hellish proportions. During the day there would be a permanent thermal updraft adding to the ground windspeed before hitting the urban heat island creating nonstop dust storms from all the surrounding areas until there is no topsoil left. Then the Greens would whine about the dust storms and no topsoil.
The thermal updraft would permanently alter weather patterns and probably reach the jetstream. Then the Greens would then whine about altering the weather.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 14:31:56 GMT -6
Night time is an obvious weakness for commercially available solar tech. However, night time solar is already being developed and I'm sure you've heard of the 26 hour day and night flight that one pilot took in a solar-powered plane, right? So you're going to have a gigantic solar panel, on a gimble (so it points at the sun), and have it charge a bunch of large hydrogen fuel cells during the day so you have electricity during the night (which is usually when people get home cause they work all day). So you got several million dollars to piss down the drain huh, very green of you; there are people starving and in pain but golly at least you're going Green. Gosh I didn't know they came in a package. So you can only run a tiny wall AC unit, on a perfectly sunny day, close the doors, and you can't run anything else or you get a brownout. I bet it barely keeps one small room cool. AC compressors draw massive amounts of current, even tiny wall units, I seriously doubt you could get anything like what you are talking about working. What did you buy? What's the model number? Where do you live?
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 14:22:03 GMT -6
He's guilty of being in the IMF.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 14:15:39 GMT -6
Politicians should fear for their lives.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 8:49:44 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 8:47:54 GMT -6
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 0:27:23 GMT -6
So Microsoft and AT and T are outdated industries huh. AT&T versus Skype-type VOIP technologies, come on now, who do you think will win? You're assertion is that "corporations" hold back innovation, in some sort of Green'ish way. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype#Historyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBaySays here Ebay is a public company, incorporated. I don't follow the geeky Microsoft Borg O.S. vs. Linux debate very well, sorry. And guess where the space program is today, still at square one. Not because of any market mechanisms, or if it's profitable not, but because chemical rocket engines invented by the Nazis in WW2 are pretty weak. Economics doesn't trump science, and it never will; and neither will economics trump God, never will. ...you didn't hear a single word I said, but hey that's life. And I do live in Phoenix, and it was more around 115, and photovoltaics on the roof will not have enough current to operate AC. At sundown it was around 100, no sun, how would that help if I had photovoltaics on the roof (assuming it would create enough juice at high-noon to run the AC for the entire house which it would NOT).
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 0:18:06 GMT -6
God bless you. ;D
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 0:16:13 GMT -6
Do you have Pesos, Euros or Dollars in your pocket? That should answer your question. We ought to hyperinflate the currency right into oblivion. Force China to try to keep up with us with their stupid peg. Betcha they'll dissolve as a country long before we do. They have far less resource security. The same is true with Brazil and India. I'm sure Russia will fall over, too. Call it the ultimate game of chicken, and our last hope of getting the offshoring monkey off our back.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 6, 2011 0:00:24 GMT -6
I guess bad shit happens when you give away jobs.
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Post by fredorbob on Jul 3, 2011 21:39:38 GMT -6
It's the 4th
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